Pointy-eared elves

[Siberian]

Where do they come from? D&D? Anime?

I understand that filmmakers needed to distinguish visually between humans and elves but now everyone, even many readers think that that's they way Tolkien's elves were (reinforced by the images of elves in the popular culture).

Don't they think that such a prominent feature should have been well known, especially in the First Age? Or in Númenor while they were still friendly with elves? Or during the Last Alliance? How could have anyone taken some of the Edain or Numenoreans for elves then? And what about the half-elven? Do their ears just change their shape when they choose their fate?

Or imagine Faramir looking at Frodo and Sam and saying:
“Elves do not walk in Ithilien in these days. And Elves are wondrous fair to look upon, or so “tis said, and they have pointy ears.”

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I moved this to the Tolkien Movies forum. But I left a shadow in Shibboleth.

[Siberian]

Actually, it was not a specific question about the movies. More like the perception of elves in the popular culture and how it, in turns, affects images of Tolkien's elves.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, we'll see where the discussion goes. But as phrased, the initial post sounds more like an adaptation question then a question specifically about Tolkien's work.

In any event, the pointed ears of the Elves and the Hobbits in the films does have its genesis in Tolkien's own words. In a 1938 letter to Houghton Mifflin he wrote about Hobbits that they have "A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'." Now, one could argue that "pointed" and "'elvish'" are meant to be two different things, but if so, what exactly does "elvish" mean?

[Primula Baggins]

Maybe in that spot Tolkien was referring to the popular images of "elves" (little people in fanciful clothes with very pointed ears!) rather than his own conception of them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Maybe. But in that case we would have Hobbits with pointed, elvish ears, and Elves, without them? Even though Hobbits are explicitly part of the same race as humans, and Elves are not?

[Siberian]

Maybe in that spot Tolkien was referring to the popular images of "elves" (little people in fanciful clothes with very pointed ears!) rather than his own conception of them.

The way it's phrased, that's what I think, too. If meant his elves, he'd say "elven".

[Primula Baggins]

Well, he would not then have been saying his Elves did not have pointed ears.

I can honestly see why PJ made that choice. It's a simple way to help the audience new to LotR to keep the players straight without a program. As I remember I felt a little disappointed in the decision, because it does seem to be taking the easy way out; but when I actually saw FotR, it no longer mattered to me. I was in Middle-earth!

[Alatar]

Thats a cop-out Siberian. You're looking for a way to justify your opinion.

Take the alternative approach. You have one statement by Tolkien that Elvish ears are slightly pointed.

Now find anything that disproves that in the text.

[vison]

"Slightly pointed" is accurate when describing Legolas, Arwen, and the other "movie Elves": compared to the depictions of "elves" in fairy tale illustrations, etc., when the ears were much larger and pointier. I think I shall go check *Rackham and a few other illustrators.
*did so, proves nothing, don't have time to do more.

A lot of the things PJ did irk me no end, but the ears on the Elves were just fine. As Prim so wisely says, it helps keep the players straight in the viewers' minds.

[Siberian]

I didn't mind Elvish ears in the movies. Something was needed to distinguish the races (although I did feel they were a bit too prominent at times).

[Siberian]

Thats a cop-out Siberian. You're looking for a way to justify your opinion.

Take the alternative approach. You have one statement by Tolkien that Elvish ears are slightly pointed.

Now find anything that disproves that in the text.

But there's nothing there that confirms it either, in any description of the elves, even when they're compared to men.

Why did Tolkien write 'elvish' in quotes? What makes you think he was referring to his own elves? By 1938, the general public has only met Tolkien's elves in The Hobbit, and there's no description of their ears, so why would he compare hobbits to them?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Because they were very alive in his consciousness. I can think of a very good reason why he would NOT so casually compare hobbits to the common image of Elves that was popular at the time; he despised that image and thought that it was a great insult to the history of Faerie (one of the reasons, for instance, that he dislike Shakespeare).

[Siberian]

I know, I read On Fairy-stories

That doesn't mean he couldn't compare some of the purely physical features for the benefit of the "outsider". How could the publisher know the details about Tolkien's elves' ears?

Besides, if he hated the pop-cultural elves of the time, why would he give them this feature then? He even regretted using the word "elves" eventually.

[Primula Baggins]

Maybe he was trying to reclaim the word?

[narya]

Are there any publications of The Hobbit or LOTR that were published during Tolkien's lifetime than have illustrations of elves with pointy ears? Surely that would be tacit approval.

Smaug, by the way, has pointy ears, according to JRRT

[Inanna]

Not a bad compilation of arguments on this question:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That pretty much says it all.

[River]

Do their ears just change their shape when they choose their fate?

Maybe. Or maybe, once they've decided to be mortal, they mate with mortals and the progeny mates with mortals and eventually the trait is just flat-out extinguished. I don't have a book in front of me, but Arwen is F2 from the initial Elwing/Eärendil cross and Aragorn is something like F50. Plenty of time for the Elf-ears to get bred out, even if they are dominant, especially since, until the Arwen/Aragorn pairing, there's no out-crossing into a purely Elven, or even another half-Elven, lineage.

Oh good lord, I almost set up a Punnett square on pointy ears. And we don't even know for sure if Elrond and Elros had elven ears or human ears or even if the ears are dominant, recessive, or co-dominant or if it's even a Mendelian trait...

[Primula Baggins]

There, there, it's perfectly natural.

Punnett squares . . . my brown-eyed daughter had a lot of fun with that one, with a blue-eyed dad and green-eyed mom; her teacher kept saying it was not possible for her to be brown-eyed with that parentage and she must have gotten our eye colors wrong.

Fortunately she had a biologist dad to load her up with a detailed explanation she then relayed to the teacher. I honestly thought we were going to have to leave town under a cloud.