Cross-posted to TORC
Years too late, but anyway:
1. Let's hunt some Orc.
Original:
We are hunting Orcs.
Original (2):
With hope or without hope, we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove the swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!
What could have been:
We follow the Orcs. Woe to them, if we prove the swifter!
2. If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance.
Original:
When dawn comes, I will bid men sound Helm's horn, and I will ride forth. ...Maybe we shall cleave a road, or make such an end as will be worth a song - if any be left to sing of us hereafter.
What could have been:
If this is to be our end, then I would have us make such an end as to be worthy of song.
3. The big one: Èowyn vs. Witch-king
Èowyn: I will kill you if you touch him!
Witch-king: Do not come between the Nazgûl and his prey.
Witch-king: Fool... No man can kill me... die now...
Èowyn: I am no man!
Original:
Èowyn: Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace.
Witch-king: Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.
Èowyn: Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.
Witch-king: Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!
Èowyn: But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.
What could have been:
Èowyn: Begone, lord of carrion!
Witch-king: Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey!
Èowyn: Do what you will. Be you living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.
Witch-king: You fool. No living man may slay me!
Èowyn: (LAUGHS) No living man am I! (removes helm) I am Éowyn, daughter of Éomund. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless!
(Moment of hesitation)
Witch-king: HRAAAA! ("Lay on Macduff...")
(After breaking her arm)
Witch-king: I will bear you away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where your flesh shall be shrivelled, and your mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye...
(Stabbed by Merry while monologuing)
Improving lines/dialogue in the New Line films
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N.E. Brigand
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Re: Improving lines/dialogue in the New Line films
I don't rememer the films much, so it's almost like I'm seeing these for the first time. It's just ridiculous that the filmmakers would have weakened "Come not" to "Do not come" -- the former is so obviously superior (see also <Drout 2004>). Personally, I'd keep "Thou fool" over "You fool", too. And preferably not have him fall into the cliche of monologuing.Anduril wrote:3. The big one: Èowyn vs. Witch-king
Èowyn: I will kill you if you touch him!
Witch-king: Do not come between the Nazgûl and his prey.
Witch-king: Fool... No man can kill me... die now...
Èowyn: I am no man!
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Yeah, the Éowyn/Witchking duel was really unfortunate. Not least because it was interrupted by the arrival Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and the soap bubbles, complete with a bad joke. That was unacceptable.
And "Let's hunt some Orc" was pretty terrible.
It does seem a bit petty, however, to complain about Théoden's line being "If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance" instead of "If this is to be our end, then I would have us make such an end as to be worthy of song."
And "Let's hunt some Orc" was pretty terrible.
It does seem a bit petty, however, to complain about Théoden's line being "If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end as to be worthy of remembrance" instead of "If this is to be our end, then I would have us make such an end as to be worthy of song."
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Primula Baggins
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I don't know. It sounded okay when Stephen Colbert read it out as part of the fine print on a credit card agreement (the late payment penalty, I believe).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Primula Baggins
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I remember that, Alatar! Sooo funny. Well worth reading.
I don't have one, I'm afraid; I saw it on the actual show a couple of weeks ago. I'd have to Google for it and time is tight just this moment. But I'm sure "Colbert dwimmerlaik" would lead you to it in a couple of clicks.yovargas wrote:Link, please?Primula Baggins wrote:I don't know. It sounded okay when Stephen Colbert read it out as part of the fine print on a credit card agreement (the late payment penalty, I believe).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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solicitr
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Oh, I think it would have worked, beautifully, displaced slightly later to replace the lame "Die now." Or in voiceover during the extended wordless sequence as that rather absurd mornigstar is revealed.I honestly don't think it's possible for the Houses of Lamentation line to be delivered straight and work. It's one of those that looks great on the page and sounds great in your head, but which would sound hopelessly archaic and stilted when in the context of an actual battle on screen.
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Primula Baggins
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"Rather" absurd? 
Early on when I saw the film in a theater, the full revelation of that morningstar got a laugh. Not what you want at that point. And the size of it was a PJ whim, as I recall; he kept making them make it larger.
Early on when I saw the film in a theater, the full revelation of that morningstar got a laugh. Not what you want at that point. And the size of it was a PJ whim, as I recall; he kept making them make it larger.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I should have added rationales to begin with...
1. "Let's hunt some Orc" - I think we can all agree this sounds too modern. But I chose to replace this with "We follow the Orcs" because it's just as punchy without being too wordy. For that extra "epic oomph" I kept "Woe to them...". But I figure this could have been saved for the extended cut.
Bakshi does use "We follow the Orcs".
2. Worthy of remembrance vs. worthy of song - I think remembrance feels too modern for comfort. (though Merriam-Webster says it dates from the 14th century)
How about "...such an end as to be remembered"?
3. Èowyn/Witch-king - Here I tried to get as much of the original sense across while cutting corners when I could. I wanted to preserve this particular bit:
Witch-king: Get out of my way, or face a fate worse than death.
Èowyn: Do what you will, but I will try to resist/stop you.
The threat of a fate worse than death is lost in the film because the Witch-king says "Die now". I wonder if this was a conscious nod to his earlier line "Die now and curse in vain!" said to Gandalf, but replaced in the film with "You have failed! The world of men will fall."
I guess "houses of lamentation" could have been saved for the extended cut, but preferably not for the above reason. But if it is omitted, how about "Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or suffer a fate worse than death! / Or your death shall be a boon denied!", or something to keep the sense of the threat...
I'm reminded of the Biblical film "King David", starring Richard Gere. There Goliath's lines (paraphrasing: "I shall feed your flesh to the beasts and birds") are spoken by a herald, and delivered as "He shall..." Goliath is a silent hulk.
1. "Let's hunt some Orc" - I think we can all agree this sounds too modern. But I chose to replace this with "We follow the Orcs" because it's just as punchy without being too wordy. For that extra "epic oomph" I kept "Woe to them...". But I figure this could have been saved for the extended cut.
Bakshi does use "We follow the Orcs".
2. Worthy of remembrance vs. worthy of song - I think remembrance feels too modern for comfort. (though Merriam-Webster says it dates from the 14th century)
How about "...such an end as to be remembered"?
3. Èowyn/Witch-king - Here I tried to get as much of the original sense across while cutting corners when I could. I wanted to preserve this particular bit:
Witch-king: Get out of my way, or face a fate worse than death.
Èowyn: Do what you will, but I will try to resist/stop you.
The threat of a fate worse than death is lost in the film because the Witch-king says "Die now". I wonder if this was a conscious nod to his earlier line "Die now and curse in vain!" said to Gandalf, but replaced in the film with "You have failed! The world of men will fall."
I guess "houses of lamentation" could have been saved for the extended cut, but preferably not for the above reason. But if it is omitted, how about "Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or suffer a fate worse than death! / Or your death shall be a boon denied!", or something to keep the sense of the threat...
I'm reminded of the Biblical film "King David", starring Richard Gere. There Goliath's lines (paraphrasing: "I shall feed your flesh to the beasts and birds") are spoken by a herald, and delivered as "He shall..." Goliath is a silent hulk.
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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Hi Anduril.
I spent months struggling with the book's dialogue to fit it into a cinematic treatment albeit in a leisurely serial format. I went to look at it to see what my solutions were. Here they are:
Aragorn: ‘If I try to seek Frodo in the barren lands across the river we abandon our friends to torment and death. I deem the fate of the Ring-Bearer is out of my hands. We have played our part. I will follow the orcs and hope to find Merry and Pippin alive. We cannot forsake them.’
Gimli: ‘Then let us begin! They have many hours start on us.’
Aragorn: ‘With hope or without it we will follow them and woe to the orcs if we prove the swifter. We shall make such a chase to make a tale for our kindreds!’ All three clasp hands.
**************************
Théoden: ‘What news?’
Cut to Aragorn. He inclines his head: ‘The Deeping Wall is taken and the defences swept away.’
Cut to Théoden: ‘And Éomer?’ Cut to the two of them as Aragorn walks close to the king.
Aragorn: ‘Many men retreated to the narrows of Helm’s Deep. He may have escaped with them. In the narrows they can hold back the enemy for a while and protect the caves.’
Théoden: ‘For a while.’ (he looks briefly out of the window again) ‘Éomer is lost and I fret in this prison. I serve little purpose here.’
Aragorn: ‘You are better defended here than at Edoras or Dunharrow in the mountains.’
Théoden: Had I known the strength and malice of Saruman I would not have so rashly followed the counsel of Gandalf.’
Aragorn: ‘Do not judge his counsel till all is over.’
Théoden, sighing: ‘That will not be long now. But I will not be taken like an old badger in a trap’ (he walks over to a table and takes his crested helmet and puts it on) ‘ The horses of my personal company are in the Hornburg. At dawn Helm’s horn will be sounded and I will ride out. I will make an ending worthy of a song if any live to sing it.’
Aragorn grasps Théoden’s arm: ‘You shall not ride out alone. I will ride with you.’
*********************************
Cut to a view from further back and the black bulk and sharply pointed crown of the Witch-King is seen in the centre of the quivering black wings. He slides from the creatures' back and turns to face the camera. Within the dull red flames that divide the crown from the shoulders are two bright red eyes. He walks slowly around in a wide circle about the black winged beast clubbing the dazed guards one by one with a sharp tined mace.
Cut to the legs of the Witch-King as he finishes his last killing and turns to the body of Théoden, now more visible below the folded wings of the beast.
Cut to a full view of the Witch-King standing by the horse.
Cut to Merry on all fours beside the body of a horse. Cut to his face. He gags and almost vomits.
Merry, whispering: ‘King’s man! King’s man! You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, I told him.’ He shakes his head and squeezes his eyes shut.
Cut back to Merry on all fours and he tries to crouch out of sight. Some yards beyond him and the cover of the horse the back of the Witch-King towers up.
Cut back to Merry’s face still facing down to the ground. He is shaking his head and weeping quietly and tears drop off his face. As he hears a voice he stops and opens his eyes.
A sharp piercing voice: ‘Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!’
Merry turns his head to look towards the back of the Witch-King: ‘Dernhelm?’
Cut to a view from behind of a single Rohirrim warrior looking up at the Witch-King. His sword is drawn, his helmet is lost and above the shield slung on his back we see his golden head. The fell beast stretches out its neck and watches him beadily.
The Witch-King in a deep slow sepulchral voice: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey or he will not slay you in your turn but bear you away to the houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness; where thy flesh will be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’
The warrior takes a step forward: ‘Do what you will but I will hinder it if I may.’
With-King: ‘Hinder me? Thou fool! No man may hinder me.’
Cut to a close-up of Merry again still facing the ground. We hear a musical laughter of amusement and Merry opens his eyes wide in shock. He kneels upright to look.
Cut to the warrior looking up to camera, laughing as if at a joke then turning grim. In an action like the Witch-King pulling back his cowl when he confronted Gandalf, Éowyn raises her arm and pulls out her long golden hair and shakes it about her shoulders.
Éowyn: ‘No living man am I! You look upon a woman, Éowyn, Eomund’s daughter.’ A rasp enters her voice. She levels her sword .’You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone if you be not deathless.’ She steps forward again. ’For living or dark undead I will smite you if you touch him!’
*******************************
I left the Éowyn dialogue virtually unchanged for its iconic quality and power.
I spent months struggling with the book's dialogue to fit it into a cinematic treatment albeit in a leisurely serial format. I went to look at it to see what my solutions were. Here they are:
Aragorn: ‘If I try to seek Frodo in the barren lands across the river we abandon our friends to torment and death. I deem the fate of the Ring-Bearer is out of my hands. We have played our part. I will follow the orcs and hope to find Merry and Pippin alive. We cannot forsake them.’
Gimli: ‘Then let us begin! They have many hours start on us.’
Aragorn: ‘With hope or without it we will follow them and woe to the orcs if we prove the swifter. We shall make such a chase to make a tale for our kindreds!’ All three clasp hands.
**************************
Théoden: ‘What news?’
Cut to Aragorn. He inclines his head: ‘The Deeping Wall is taken and the defences swept away.’
Cut to Théoden: ‘And Éomer?’ Cut to the two of them as Aragorn walks close to the king.
Aragorn: ‘Many men retreated to the narrows of Helm’s Deep. He may have escaped with them. In the narrows they can hold back the enemy for a while and protect the caves.’
Théoden: ‘For a while.’ (he looks briefly out of the window again) ‘Éomer is lost and I fret in this prison. I serve little purpose here.’
Aragorn: ‘You are better defended here than at Edoras or Dunharrow in the mountains.’
Théoden: Had I known the strength and malice of Saruman I would not have so rashly followed the counsel of Gandalf.’
Aragorn: ‘Do not judge his counsel till all is over.’
Théoden, sighing: ‘That will not be long now. But I will not be taken like an old badger in a trap’ (he walks over to a table and takes his crested helmet and puts it on) ‘ The horses of my personal company are in the Hornburg. At dawn Helm’s horn will be sounded and I will ride out. I will make an ending worthy of a song if any live to sing it.’
Aragorn grasps Théoden’s arm: ‘You shall not ride out alone. I will ride with you.’
*********************************
Cut to a view from further back and the black bulk and sharply pointed crown of the Witch-King is seen in the centre of the quivering black wings. He slides from the creatures' back and turns to face the camera. Within the dull red flames that divide the crown from the shoulders are two bright red eyes. He walks slowly around in a wide circle about the black winged beast clubbing the dazed guards one by one with a sharp tined mace.
Cut to the legs of the Witch-King as he finishes his last killing and turns to the body of Théoden, now more visible below the folded wings of the beast.
Cut to a full view of the Witch-King standing by the horse.
Cut to Merry on all fours beside the body of a horse. Cut to his face. He gags and almost vomits.
Merry, whispering: ‘King’s man! King’s man! You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, I told him.’ He shakes his head and squeezes his eyes shut.
Cut back to Merry on all fours and he tries to crouch out of sight. Some yards beyond him and the cover of the horse the back of the Witch-King towers up.
Cut back to Merry’s face still facing down to the ground. He is shaking his head and weeping quietly and tears drop off his face. As he hears a voice he stops and opens his eyes.
A sharp piercing voice: ‘Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!’
Merry turns his head to look towards the back of the Witch-King: ‘Dernhelm?’
Cut to a view from behind of a single Rohirrim warrior looking up at the Witch-King. His sword is drawn, his helmet is lost and above the shield slung on his back we see his golden head. The fell beast stretches out its neck and watches him beadily.
The Witch-King in a deep slow sepulchral voice: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey or he will not slay you in your turn but bear you away to the houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness; where thy flesh will be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’
The warrior takes a step forward: ‘Do what you will but I will hinder it if I may.’
With-King: ‘Hinder me? Thou fool! No man may hinder me.’
Cut to a close-up of Merry again still facing the ground. We hear a musical laughter of amusement and Merry opens his eyes wide in shock. He kneels upright to look.
Cut to the warrior looking up to camera, laughing as if at a joke then turning grim. In an action like the Witch-King pulling back his cowl when he confronted Gandalf, Éowyn raises her arm and pulls out her long golden hair and shakes it about her shoulders.
Éowyn: ‘No living man am I! You look upon a woman, Éowyn, Eomund’s daughter.’ A rasp enters her voice. She levels her sword .’You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone if you be not deathless.’ She steps forward again. ’For living or dark undead I will smite you if you touch him!’
*******************************
I left the Éowyn dialogue virtually unchanged for its iconic quality and power.
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Impenitent
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Wonderful, Tosh. Gives me chill bumps just to read your version. Of course, a certain professor had something to do with it.-
axordil
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I will maintain to my dying breath that the Éowyn lines wouldn't work on screen. They play great in the theaters of our minds, but that's not the same thing. Screen writing is not like straightforward prose writing. It simply isn't.
However, since it's essentially an unfalsifiable (unless someone has a couple of hundred million dollars lying around unused) I am content never to bring it up again. I have my faith and others have theirs, and that's as it should be.
However, since it's essentially an unfalsifiable (unless someone has a couple of hundred million dollars lying around unused) I am content never to bring it up again. I have my faith and others have theirs, and that's as it should be.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Ax may well be right.
All I could do was play it in the theatre of my mind and keep to my brief of providing as purist a version as was reasonable. There are lots of other ways of tackling it. I'd welcome more thoughts on this from Ax. If I had to work within the time constraints of PJ then I would have made different choices. This treatment was 15 and a half hours long.
Notice how I used action and cutting to punctuate the dialogue, most notably with the Éowyn sequence but to a lesser extent at the Hornburg too.
This is the longest uninterrupted passage in the Éowyn encounter:
Very briefly for my other two passages; in the first this is the point that Aragorn makes his choice. I have him tormented by doubt from the point he bids farewell to Celeborn. This is a psychological moment.
In the second it is a breathing space in the middle of grim, fast flowing action sequences. In both cases a little wordiness is in order (IMO)
But in defence of the 'wordy' route I'll ask if anyone has enjoyed a Shakespeare movie? I know I have. Part of Tolkien's allure is the speech he gives his characters. I spent an awful lot of time and thought cutting it down but I definitely wanted it to shine out. Not all cinema is Truffault or John Ford.
All I could do was play it in the theatre of my mind and keep to my brief of providing as purist a version as was reasonable. There are lots of other ways of tackling it. I'd welcome more thoughts on this from Ax. If I had to work within the time constraints of PJ then I would have made different choices. This treatment was 15 and a half hours long.
Notice how I used action and cutting to punctuate the dialogue, most notably with the Éowyn sequence but to a lesser extent at the Hornburg too.
This is the longest uninterrupted passage in the Éowyn encounter:
I put in slow but imagine it spoken in rolling rhythms for each clause with the lingering emphasis on the last two words. If anything deserves a scenery chewing Shakespearean rolling delivery that does. It took about 30 seconds to deliver just now aloud.The Witch-King in a deep slow sepulchral voice: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey or he will not slay you in your turn but bear you away to the houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness; where thy flesh will be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’
Very briefly for my other two passages; in the first this is the point that Aragorn makes his choice. I have him tormented by doubt from the point he bids farewell to Celeborn. This is a psychological moment.
In the second it is a breathing space in the middle of grim, fast flowing action sequences. In both cases a little wordiness is in order (IMO)
But in defence of the 'wordy' route I'll ask if anyone has enjoyed a Shakespeare movie? I know I have. Part of Tolkien's allure is the speech he gives his characters. I spent an awful lot of time and thought cutting it down but I definitely wanted it to shine out. Not all cinema is Truffault or John Ford.
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