Improving lines/dialogue in the New Line films

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

I'll ask if anyone has enjoyed a Shakespeare movie?
Shakespeare works on screen (if it works, which isn't always) because:

1) He was writing for the stage, which, while not identical to screen writing, carries some of the main constraints, specifically and most of all: the fact of time. We can read a book at our leisure--in the case of something as long and deliberately paced as LOTR it is impossible not to--while drama, live or recorded, is a real-time phenomenon. Yes, you can back up the DVD, but in doing so you disrupt the flow in a way that turning a page back does not. Which brings us to point two:

2) Our brains process text differently than sight and sound. When reading, there is the instantaneous sensory and motor interaction of moving our eyes across the page, the momentary but continuous process of parsing, and a ongoing process of building the mental narrative in our minds from the schematics on the page. It is nearly a precise mirror of the process of writing prose, btw. By contrast, because of the real-time nature of drama, and the fact that it doesn't have to pass through the textual linguistic parser in our brains, there is only a sensory element and the narrative building. The result is a more visceral experience, albeit a more passive one.

3) Shakespeare's writing for his "action" scenes is notably different than that for his soliloquies, or clowning, or patter, or romance. Compare:
HAMLET
Come on, sir.

LAERTES
Come, my lord.
They play

HAMLET
One.

LAERTES
No.

HAMLET
Judgment.

OSRIC
A hit, a very palpable hit.

LAERTES
Well; again.

KING CLAUDIUS
Stay; give me drink. Hamlet, this pearl is thine;
Here's to thy health.

Trumpets sound, and cannon shot off within
Give him the cup.

HAMLET
I'll play this bout first; set it by awhile. Come.
They play
Another hit; what say you?

LAERTES
A touch, a touch, I do confess.

KING CLAUDIUS
Our son shall win.
To:
HAMLET
O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable,
Seem to me all the uses of this world!
Fie on't! ah fie! 'tis an unweeded garden,
That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
Possess it merely. That it should come to this!
But two months dead: nay, not so much, not two:
So excellent a king; that was, to this,
Hyperion to a satyr; so loving to my mother
That he might not beteem the winds of heaven
Visit her face too roughly. Heaven and earth!
Must I remember? why, she would hang on him,
As if increase of appetite had grown
By what it fed on: and yet, within a month--
Let me not think on't--Frailty, thy name is woman!--
A little month, or ere those shoes were old
With which she follow'd my poor father's body,
Like Niobe, all tears:--why she, even she--
O, God! a beast, that wants discourse of reason,
Would have mourn'd longer--married with my uncle,
My father's brother, but no more like my father
Than I to Hercules: within a month:
Ere yet the salt of most unrighteous tears
Had left the flushing in her galled eyes,
She married. O, most wicked speed, to post
With such dexterity to incestuous sheets!
It is not nor it cannot come to good:
But break, my heart; for I must hold my tongue.
When we think "Shakesperian" we think of the lofty poesy of the soliloquies first, and they do roll trippingly off the tongue, as it were. ;) But comic scenes, or (more to the point) scenes depicting actual combat, have a different pacing entirely. He doesn't let the words get in the way of the action.

There are ragged edges to this rule: the final battlefield conversation between Macduff and Macbeth, for example, is far less pointed than that from Hamlet excerpted above--but then, it's not only explaining a key plot point (one very similar to that involved with Éowyn and the WK), it's also setting up the final confrontation of the play. It requires setup to make the payoff bigger. Éowyn and the WK are supporting players. It's a great scene, but it's a side issue. If one was writing a script that was Rohan-centric, the textual buildup would fit better--but that wouldn't be LOTR. It might be fun, though. :)

4) He's Shakespeare. We have different expectations for his stuff than for any other material. We wouldn't put up with Elizabethan English otherwise (well, maybe some of Marlowe). In terms of popularity, you have to jump 200 years before you hit someone whose works still have comparable currency--Austen--and her language is much, much more familiar.

Thought experiment: how would Shakespeare have written the confrontation between Éowyn and the WK? Ignoring for the moment that the WK is more a plot function (he's EEEEEEEEEEEEvil!) than a character, of course, and so Will probably wouldn't be all that interested in the scene. :D
ALARUMS :D

Éowyn
Begone, foul lord of carrion! Unclean
And wicked spirit, leave the dead in peace!

WK
Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey,
Thou wretched boy, lest thee be plucked untimely
From this warlike field, and left lamentable
In thy devour'd flesh before the Eye.

Éowyn
Yet hinder you I shall, if in my arm
The power I possess. Do what you will.

WK
Thou foolish knave! No man of woman born
May hinder me!

Éowyn (laughs)
Fly, then, if death's sharp sting
Still gives thee pause; no living man am I,
But Éowyn, daughter to Eomund. Begone!
For I shall smite thee if thou touchest him.
Eh, maybe not. :)
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Post by WampusCat »

Now I want to read an entire Shakespearean LOTR.

But since an editor always feels the need to tweak, I would have slightly altered Tosh's version of the Witch-King's warning:
‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey or he will not slay you in your turn but bear you away to the houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness; where thy flesh will be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’
"Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey or he will not slay you but bear you away beyond all darkness, where your flesh will be devoured and your shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

It loses little and flows better, in my ever-humble opinion.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Personally I find alarums much more alarming than alarms.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

Or is that alaruming? :scratch:
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Post by Primula Baggins »

:D Perhaps.

As kids, my brother and I read a lot of Shakespeare plays, understanding them about as well as you would expect. We liked and used some of the vocabulary such as "alarum" and "prithee" and "sirrah." I remember that we solemnly agreed that "exeunt" means the same as "exit" except you shake your bottom as you go. (We knew better, but words are too much fun to be literal about—and we did both end up as writers.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

Point taken Ax. Part of my approach was to retain all the flavour of Tolkien and to keep the distinctive turns of phrase. Thus for instance in the Wi-Ki's response I kept in the Houses of Lamentation for its biblical feel and because the enthusiasts would grumble if it was missing. Even before Wampus offered a trimmed version I was thinking it was one of the phrases that could be dropped. If the priority is not trying to preserve the best Tolkien dialogue at all costs then I could have done much more trimming.
Here for example are the previous passages followed by possible changes to parts of the dialogue.


Aragorn: ‘If I try to seek Frodo in the barren lands across the river we abandon our friends to torment and death. I deem the fate of the Ring-Bearer is out of my hands. We have played our part. I will follow the orcs and hope to find Merry and Pippin alive. We cannot forsake them.’

Gimli: ‘Then let us begin! They have many hours start on us.’

Aragorn: ‘With hope or without it we will follow them and woe to the orcs if we prove the swifter. We shall make such a chase to make a tale for our kindreds!’ All three clasp hands.
**************************
Aragorn: 'The fate of the Ring-bearer is out of our hands. I will not abandon Merry and Pippin to the orcs.'
Gimli: 'Then we must hurry, they have many hours start on us.'
Aragorn: 'We will follow them and woe to the orcs if we are the swifter.'




Théoden: ‘What news?’

Cut to Aragorn. He inclines his head: ‘The Deeping Wall is taken and the defences swept away.’

Cut to Théoden: ‘And Éomer?’ Cut to the two of them as Aragorn walks close to the king.

Aragorn: ‘Many men retreated to the narrows of Helm’s Deep. He may have escaped with them. In the narrows they can hold back the enemy for a while and protect the caves.’

Théoden: ‘For a while.’ (he looks briefly out of the window again) ‘Éomer is lost and I fret in this prison. I serve little purpose here.’

Aragorn: ‘You are better defended here than at Edoras or Dunharrow in the mountains.’

Théoden: Had I known the strength and malice of Saruman I would not have so rashly followed the counsel of Gandalf.’

Aragorn: ‘Do not judge his counsel till all is over.’

Théoden, sighing: ‘That will not be long now. But I will not be taken like an old badger in a trap’ (he walks over to a table and takes his crested helmet and puts it on) ‘ The horses of my personal company are in the Hornburg. At dawn Helm’s horn will be sounded and I will ride out. I will make an ending worthy of a song if any live to sing it.’

Aragorn grasps Théoden’s arm: ‘You shall not ride out alone. I will ride with you.’
*********************************
....Théoden: ‘What news?’

Cut to Aragorn. He inclines his head: ‘The Deeping Wall is taken and the defences swept away.’

Cut to Théoden: ‘And Éomer?’ Cut to the two of them as Aragorn walks close to the king.

Aragorn: 'He may have escaped to the narrows to hold back the enemy.'
Théoden: 'For a while...I will not be taken like a badger in a trap...... At dawn I will ride out to the call of Helm's Horn. It will be an ending worthy of song if any live to sing it.'

Cut to a view from further back and the black bulk and sharply pointed crown of the Witch-King is seen in the centre of the quivering black wings. He slides from the creatures' back and turns to face the camera. Within the dull red flames that divide the crown from the shoulders are two bright red eyes. He walks slowly around in a wide circle about the black winged beast clubbing the dazed guards one by one with a sharp tined mace.
Cut to the legs of the Witch-King as he finishes his last killing and turns to the body of Théoden, now more visible below the folded wings of the beast.
Cut to a full view of the Witch-King standing by the horse.
Cut to Merry on all fours beside the body of a horse. Cut to his face. He gags and almost vomits.
Merry, whispering: ‘King’s man! King’s man! You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, I told him.’ He shakes his head and squeezes his eyes shut.
Cut back to Merry on all fours and he tries to crouch out of sight. Some yards beyond him and the cover of the horse the back of the Witch-King towers up.
Cut back to Merry’s face still facing down to the ground. He is shaking his head and weeping quietly and tears drop off his face. As he hears a voice he stops and opens his eyes.

A sharp piercing voice: ‘Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!’
Merry turns his head to look towards the back of the Witch-King: ‘Dernhelm?’
Cut to a view from behind of a single Rohirrim warrior looking up at the Witch-King. His sword is drawn, his helmet is lost and above the shield slung on his back we see his golden head. The fell beast stretches out its neck and watches him beadily.

The Witch-King in a deep slow sepulchral voice: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey or he will not slay you in your turn but bear you away to the houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness; where thy flesh will be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’

The warrior takes a step forward: ‘Do what you will but I will hinder it if I may.’

With-King: ‘Hinder me? Thou fool! No man may hinder me.’

Cut to a close-up of Merry again still facing the ground. We hear a musical laughter of amusement and Merry opens his eyes wide in shock. He kneels upright to look.
Cut to the warrior looking up to camera, laughing as if at a joke then turning grim. In an action like the Witch-King pulling back his cowl when he confronted Gandalf, Éowyn raises her arm and pulls out her long golden hair and shakes it about her shoulders.
Éowyn: ‘No living man am I! You look upon a woman, Éowyn, Eomund’s daughter.’ A rasp enters her voice. She levels her sword .’You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone if you be not deathless.’ She steps forward again. ’For living or dark undead I will smite you if you touch him!’
As written but the following dialogue becomes...

Wi-Ki: 'Step forward and I shall not slay you but bear you away. Beyond all darkness your flesh will be devoured till your shrvelled mind is naked to the Lidless Eye.'

Éowyn: ' Try but I will hinder it if I can.'
..............
.............
Éowyn: 'But you look upon a woman. I am Éowyn, Lady of Rohan...... You stand between me and my Lord. Begone if you be not deathless.... for I will smite you if you touch him.'



Perhaps closer to a cinematic dialogue but not half as good or hair raising.
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

Tosh--

I respect what you've done, and I am realizing what I've been saying sounds way too much like criticism. You've made a souffle, and I'm carping because it's not a hamburger.

What would you say is the goal of your project?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Just in case anyone doesn't realize it, Tosh's whole amazing work can be read at:

viewforum.php?f=21
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

Pffft Ax. I lapped up comments, nitpicks and criticisms when I was doing it. I knew that my choices were one of many possible ones and was always interested in alternatives and advice (even if I chose to ignore it). If enough people had said it was either too daft or boring at the beginning I would have dropped it with no hard feeling.

I knew that my effort wasn't really feasible in real life, at least not without serious professional alteration, so it was meant for the mind's eye, to show how a serial might work on the screen in a way that would satisfy the enthusiast as well as entertain an uninformed newcomer.

As Anduril raised PJ's treatment of a few passages I was curious to go back and see what my approach to them were. As to my goal, I set out to entertain myself and others and to show that a serial was feasible. Many had said it wasn't.
In retrospect I also think I got something out of my system that had been there for a very long time.
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vison
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Post by vison »

Maybe you need a high colonic? ;)
Dig deeper.
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

Isn't colonic irrigation what the people in Hobby's home town get from the Rhine?
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Post by axordil »

Badumdum. *ching*
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