The Two Towers re-redux

[Sassafras]

Refreshing Prim's memory.

Galadriel: I amar prestar aen... han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han nostan ned gwilith. (The world has changed... I feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, I smell it in the air.) The power of the enemy is growing.

<Saruman is communicating with Sauron via the Palantír.>

Sauron will use his puppet Saruman to destroy the people of Rohan. Isengard has been unleashed.

<View of Saruman's marching army>

The eye of Sauron now turns to Gondor, the last free kingdom of men.

<View of Osgiliath>

His war on this country will come swiftly. He senses the Ring is close. The strength of the Ringbearer is failing. In his heart, Frodo begins to understand.

<Close-up of Galadriel>

The quest will claim his life. You know this. You have foreseen it. It is the risk we all took.

<Close-up of the Ring spinning in slow motion>

Galadriel (V.O.): In the gathering dark, the will of the Ring grows strong. It works hard now to find its way back into the hands of men.

<We see Faramir and Gondorian rangers with the captured Frodo and Sam.>

Galadriel (V.O.): Men, who are so easily seduced by its power. The young captain of Gondor has but to extend his hands, take the Ring for his own and the world will fall. It is close now, so close to achieving its goal.

<Faramir and company have reached Henneth Annûn. Frodo and Sam and being carries, blinded-folded into the cave.>

Galadriel (V.O.): For Sauron will have dominion of all life on this Earth, even unto the ending of the world. The time of the Elves is over.

<Close-up of Galadriel's luminous eyes with their deep pools of wisdom. We then see Elrond in his library, looking at the painting of Isildur facing down Sauron with the broken blade of Narsil.>

Galadriel (V.O.): Do we leave Middle-earth to its fate? Do we let them stand alone?

Subtle? On occasion perhaps. Although I'm inclined to think that most of PJ's subtley was more visual rather than oral. It was the camera, the images, (like the Rohan flag fluttering to the feet of the approaching three hunters) that hinted at more than just the surface meaning ... the script tended to be rather concrete ....

as in the above example.

Just sayin'



<Prim, you know I love these films despite their frailties>

[Athrabeth]

The way Galadriel makes her pronouncement all laden with portent and doom, one would think (had one NOT read the book) that Frodo (Fordo ) will die upon the slopes of Mount Doom.

Sass, it's called building dramatic tension................sheesh!

That being said, the scene is pretty much a "meh" moment for me. But because Jackson had decided to bring Elves to Helm's Deep, I think that some way had to be found to portent this before the fact.........and for the sake of the, shall we say, less retentive members of the audience, I also think a little review of how things stood didn't hurt (time of the Elves is over, Gondor as the last free realm of Men, yadda-yadda-yadda).

And I think "Galadriel's luminous eyes with their deep pools of wisdom" are teh KEWL!!!

After all, Peter Jackson is not known for his extreme subtlety.

<except in the Voronwë and Athrabeth households, that is>

'nuff said.

Thank-you for defending my inconsistently subtle honour, Prim!

<sw00ns unsubtley for Sass's sig>

[Primula Baggins]

<Prim, you know I love these films despite their frailties>

<I know! So do I. I watched them, parts of them, now and then when I was sick, and it was always such a comforting feeling to just hand myself over to them, and let the visuals and music and beautiful acting and Tolkien's story and even sometimes his words carry me far away.>

After observing the P/R debates and the more moderate discussions we've all had since then, I've finally come to the conclusion that I'm less sensitive to being sledgehammered than some other people are. There are times where PJ's unsubtle ways or an unexplicable turn of the script pull even me out of the film, but many other things that bother more sensitive people don't bother me, even though I often recognize them as weak spots and problems. I know that if I'm just patient, in a few minutes something wonderful is going to happen.

Properly, I should wish to be more esthetically sensitive, I suppose, but if it cost me my ability to enjoy these films, that would be a real loss to me.

Ath,

[Alatar]

I seem to recall that at one time Arwen was to have come to Lórien for Galadriels advice and to ask for her intervention. This was to have been followed by Arwen at Helms Deep. If those scenes were indeed filmed, then it could easily have been refocused to allow for Elves at Helms Deep sans Arwen.

Like TTBK, I would dearly like to see all the cut scenes, particularly those that were so reviled, to see if they had merit in their own right. Perhaps in a movie, Arwen at Helms Deep would have worked. Perhaps.

[Primula Baggins]

Some parts of AAHD were filmed—such as when Aragorn and Théoden ride out of the Hornburg at dawn. Arwen (or her riding double) was there and had to be digitally covered up with someone else.

I believe some hand-to-hand fighting was also filmed, but Liv Tyler was so hopeless at making it look real that that no doubt contributed to the decision that AAHD was a bad idea.

[TheTennisBallKid]

You can still see Arwen in a couple frames as they ride out.


IIRC, Elrond went to Lórien as well, and the monologue in the "tele-conference" is a leftover from a sort of second-Council-of-Elrond the elves had there.







ttbk

[Primula Baggins]

ttbk, thanks! I knew I'd seen at least one of those somewhere.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Faramir does not need a character arc. Faramir is not Boromir, although the film blurs the distinction between the brothers. By softening Boromir and hardening Faramit the moral difference between them becomes moot so that they are almost interchangeable.

I totally agree with this analysis.

I will say that the flashback scene showing Denethor, Boromir, and Faramir at the victory in Osgiliath added more than any other scene included in the extended versions. It added a lot to the understanding of Faramir's relationship with his father, and should have been included in the theatrical version.

I think the best example of this is the scene in fellowship where he is teaching Merry and Pippin how to swordfight. He is humanized in a way that does not (in my opinion) come through as well in the book.

I loved that scene. Boromir's laughter is like music to my ears. I guess that's because I know his fate.

The Voice of Saruman:
It wasn't included. It should have been. In the TE.

I totally agree. Saving Saruman's demise for the ROTK extended edition was a big injustice to the film trilogy.

What they got right.

The Foundations of Stone:

I love this scene. I love the imagery. I love the music. Really awesome!

Frankly, I would expect an elf to do more than sit prettily, wringing her hands...while the obligatory single tear trickles fetchingly down one pale cheek.

Arwen pretty.

I frequently feel as though I am watching a film within a film. Directed by two different people of very unequal talent.

That's an excellent way of putting it.

The Two Towers will never replace Fellowship as the most loved. But it does deserve a second look.

Does that mean you give it a thumbs up?


What I really missed about TTT and the three films in general was Tolkien's emphasis on the importance of courtesy:

'...Wise man trusts not to chance-meeting on the road in this land. If I return, I will speak more with you.'

'Farewell!' said Frodo, bowing low. 'Think what you will, I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy. We would go with you, if we halfling folk could hope to serve you, such doughty men and strong as you seem, and if my errand permitted it. May the light shine on your swords!'

'The Halflings are courteous folk, whatever else they be', said Faramir. 'Farwell!'

The courtesy that Faramir extends to Frodo and Sam in Tolkien's book is contrasted by the rudeness of Faramir and his men to Frodo and Sam in Jackson's book. Do you think Bookamir would have used the point of his sword to get a better look at the Ring on a chain around Frodo's neck?

Merry and Pippin's drunken giddiness at Isengard in Jackson's film does not match their polite greeting in Tolkien's book. One of my favorite bits of Tolkien's subtle humor comes at the conclusion of this meeting:

The hobbits bowed low. 'So that is the King of Rohan!' said Pippin in an undertone. 'A fine old fellow. Very polite'

I guess that would be one of my chief criticisms of Peter Jackson: he lacks subtlety. Unlike Tolkien, Jackson does not trust his audience to appreciate it.

And finally...

Kidding aside, the Quest did "claim" Frodo's life.

But not Fordo's, apparently.

Fordo lives!

[MithLuin]

<waves back> Hi, Hobby!

It seems I did find my way here, eventually . It doesn't hurt that I gave up TORc for Lent.... But I really signed up because I saw there was an Athrabeth thread...I should post in that at some point! But since I dropped out of the Movies forum on TORc before Fellowship was released (and only came back after RotK was out), I do think it is fun to join in the discussion here.

The abilities displayed by Elrond and Galadriel during the "teleconference" are at least potentially feasible.

I have not read the essay in HoME (Osanwe-kenta, or something) that discusses these mental abilities. But just looking at LotR alone...

Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond have a "silent" conversation on the last night before they part ways (between Fangorn and Rivendell).

Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of fogotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

Granted, this "conversation" took place when they were together, in person, and could look from eye to eye. A similar ability is revealed by Gandalf when he seemingly reads Frodo's mind in Rivendell:

'You seem to know a great deal already,' said Frodo. 'I have not spoken to the others about the Barrow. At first it was too horrible, and afterwards there were other things to think about. How do you know about it?'
'You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo,' said Gandalf gently, 'and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory. Do not worry! ...

But there are other references to such abilities when the person in question is not present, is in fact far away. The first instance is, surprisingly, Frodo. Gandalf had just described his capture by Saruman at Orthanc to the Council of Elrond:

'I saw you!' cried Frodo. 'You were walking backwards and forwards. The moon shone in your hair.'
Gandalf paused astonished and looked at him. 'It was only a dream,' said Frodo, 'but it suddenly came back to me. I had quite forgotten it. It came some time agao; after I left the Shire, I think.'

In fact, it was his dream on the first night in the House of Tom Bombadil <waves>. I imagine that hobbits don't generally have this ability (to see things far away), but Frodo does (in his dreams). I don't know whether it is because Frodo is just such a special hobbit, or because he has had the Ring since adulthood. But obviously, he does have this gift of foresight, or true sight (he dreams of the Sea before ever seeing it, and he dreams of the 'rain curtain' at the beginning of the Quest).

But there are so many special cases wrapped around Frodo, I need to move on to Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf, the ones who 'naturally' have this ability!

I know Elrond makes a comment about certain areas being dark to him - he can't see into Mordor, for instance. But I can't remember where - I didn't find his reference to the Shadow in a brief skim of the Council and the setting out from Rivendell, sorry.

Gandalf and Galadriel's quotes are easier to find!

Gandalf helped Frodo at Amon Hen, even though he was far away. He was the Voice saying, "Take it off, fool!" (the "fool" should be the give-away, there )

'Some things [the eagle] has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place [in Fangorn], and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought....'

later, about Saruman (who is in Isengard)

'I look into his mind and I see his doubt.'

But of course Gandalf is a wizard - and Gandalf the White doubly so . His abilities may be beyond that of the elves. But it turns out they are not.

'I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

This is at the Mirror - so maybe she uses her mirror for part of this. But her claim to know Sauron's mind 'even while speaking to' Frodo implies that she is using some mental ability (no doubt enhanced by her Ring).

And let us not forget Galadriel's messages (born by Gandalf):

Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?...
The Dead watch the road that leads to the Sea.

and later, when Halbarad shows up with the Dúnedain:

'They answered a summons, as you heard,' said Gimli. 'Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.'
'Nay, Galadriel,' said Legolas. 'Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?'
'Yes, you have it,' said Gimli. 'The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires.'

What on earth is going on here? Both Elrond and Galadriel are (separately, seemingly) reminding Aragorn about the Paths of the Dead. Galadriel sent a message to Rivendell in no time flat (seriously, the journey would take too long to get any literal message through). And the message said to go to Rohan - but they must have set out before Aragorn even reached Rohan! And why was there 'doubt' about the source of the message?

• Chronology:
  Feb. 16th: Company departs Lothlórien.
  Feb 17th: Gandalf arrives in Lothlórien.
  Feb. 27th: Aragorn et al. enter Rohan.
  March 1st: Gandalf reunited with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn.
  March 6th: The Dúnedain arrive in Rohan and meet Aragorn.
  (February has 30 days)

Contrast this with the nearly 2 months it took Elladan and Elrohir to travel to Lórien and back after the Council of Elrond. It took the Fellowship two weeks to walk from Rivendell to Hollin (with no delays).

Basically, this passage is the elven teleconference! Galadriel 'told' Elrond about the Company after they left Lothlórien, and Elrond passed the message on to Halbarad (and his own children). Elrohir would not have mentioned the Paths of the Dead if Galadriel hadn't mentioned them to Elrond.

So, my problem with that scene in the movie is not that Galadriel (in Lothlórien) seems to be talking to Elrond (in Rivendell). I can accept some level of Elvish magic - after all, they both predict the future very naturally, and that is fine. What bugs me is what they say - it's all stupid stuff! Galadriel is creating dramatic tension, yes, but she's wrong in her foreboding. Couldn't her perceived threat have been more ambiguous? Couldn't she have said something like "the Quest is too much for Frodo's strength - you know this. He will fail." [Okay, yeah - don't let me write the dialogue either!] But, at least something with implications or ambiguity - "destroyed" or "failed" or "cost" - not "death" or "his life." Something that sounds like "he's gonna die" but that could really mean "he's going to claim the Ring" or "he will be captured" or "there is no way into Mordor." The "recap" aspect also seems a bit dense - like, duh, we knew this already, and we can tell you are just recapping! I guess I feel the same way about that as I do about Faramir's stupid remarks on the map "I know what is going on everywhere in Middle Earth even though I would have no conceivable way of knowing this, just so I can show you, the viewer, where I am in relation to the other action happening at Helm's Deep." It's clunky.

Oh, and I will agree with whomever said that the text describing Helm's Deep is confusing. When I read it to my brothers, I drew them a diagram . Well, actually, it was just a picture, but I labeled the Deeping Wall, the culvert, the gate, etc. It makes so much more sense if you have a picture.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Excellent analysis, Mith.

You mentioned Frodo's possession of the Ring as a possible magnifier of his mental abilities. Remember, too, that Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf possessed Rings of Power. Perhaps the 3 Elven Rings magnified their mental abilities?

While reading Mith's post I thought of another example of Tolkien's emphasis on courtesy, this is from The Return of the King:

'I see that strange tales are woven about you,' said Denethor, 'and once again it is shown that looks may belie the man--or the halfling. I accept your service. For you are not daunted by words; and you have courteous speech, strange though the sound of it may be to us in the South. And we shall have need of all folk of courtesy, be they great or small, in the days to come...'

This may be contrasted with the Mouth of Sauron's lack of courtesy:

'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with with to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn...

Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it...though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. 'I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!' he cried.

'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence...'

Jackson ends this encounter with Aragorn beheading the insolent Mouth of Sauron followed by one of Gimli's characteristic one-liners, "I guess that ends negotiations." So much for the good guys' courtesy.

Excuse me, it seems I have Osiliated to ROTK. Please return to the discusssion of TTT...

[Athrabeth]

to Mithluin.

..........even the stuff about the dialogue.

[Erunáme]

It's gotten even longer. I think this is a lot of the reasons I didn't participate in moobies. So much to reply to and read!

I forgot to get to this in my last post:

Then the fall bugged me. Gandalf dropped his sword about 2 minutes earlier, but he catches up with it as he's falling?

That's possible. Gandalf aimed his head down and put his arms against his body...kind of made himself into the shape of a missle. This is what skydivers to to decrease drag which speeds their fall. So nothing silly about it.

Not so much WHAT he said but rather in the measured, almost wistful manner way in which he says the words. BookBoromir is a proud, willfull man; cognizant of his nobility, who falls to the Ring precisely because of his rigidity. He does not question his ambition; he does not doubt. He is internally inflexible and because he cannot bend ... he easily falls prey to the Ring's seduction.

Yes, that's the way Tolkien wrote it...but I like PJ's version better. It's more real. Of course many of Tolkien's characters aren't completely realistic. I think it's totally plausible that he would have doubts and internal turmoil...that he wants to do well: please his father, do the best for Gondor, be a good leader....and the Ring makes him think it will help him, though in a way Boromir knows that's not quite so from history, but in the end the Ring does win out (like with Frodo) because men who desire power are too easily swayed.

I don't think there is a discrepancy. Hobbits are supposed to be more resilient and less affected by the Ring,

One word: Gollum.

Well, yes, but I think that problem was created by Tolkien. Only Men and Gollum seem to be affected by the Ring quite quickly. It takes Bilbo years to be truly affected, Frodo is slowly worn down and we see no effect on Sam, Merry, or Pippin. Gandalf did say that Gollum was of a hobbit-like people so maybe that's the difference. Gollum wasn't really a hobbit and I would think the people watching the movie wouldn't think of him as one.

Squeeee. I have to admit I love the way the other Fellowshippers take care of the Rohan ruffians while Gandalf strides unconcernedly forward.

Unfortunately Sass, I feel the same way. It's just kewl.

In the EE, when Treebeard "sings" that little snippet of the Song of the Entwives and camera pans over those vast forests..........

I feel exactly the same way! That part makes my heart soar!

Overall, with TTT as with the other two, it was the TONE that troubled me. I thought the story was cheapened and dumbed down and could have forgiven nearly any plot manipulation if PJ had managed, somehow, to convey the lofty beauty and majesty of Tolkien's tale. That was the failure, for me.

I've never read it put that way before, but this totally makes sense and I agree with it. While it has some beautiful and majestic scenes, it's not the same as the other two movies.

So am I the only person who hates the Elven Teleconference?

It's never bothered me....probably because I like Galadriel so much.

One of my moments is Galadriel saying,

The quest will claim his life. You know this. You have foreseen it. It is the risk we all took.

and I'm thinking, "Erm, no. Not exactly ... he survives, you know and sails west on the same ship as both of you!"

So much for elven foresight.

I never at all took that line to mean "Frodo's going to die during his quest". I took it to mean what exactly happened to him. The quest did claim his life. He got back home, but it wasn't home. He was never the same again.

MithLuin, that was an interesting and good post.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

I don't think there is a discrepancy. Hobbits are supposed to be more resilient and less affected by the Ring,

One word: Gollum.

Well, yes, but I think that problem was created by Tolkien. Only Men and Gollum seem to be affected by the Ring quite quickly. It takes Bilbo years to be truly affected, Frodo is slowly worn down and we see no effect on Sam, Merry, or Pippin. Gandalf did say that Gollum was of a hobbit-like people so maybe that's the difference. Gollum wasn't really a hobbit and I would think the people watching the movie wouldn't think of him as one.

The difference, I think, between Gollum and Bilbo/Frodo is intent and character. Sméagol was not a entirelyl nice character to begin with. The Ring could easily have seized upon his inner greed and ampliphied it. (That is within the realm of the Ring's power, right?) Once he claimed it as his 'birthday present' from Déagol, there was no going back. He wanted it. That was all him, but the fact that it was the RING made him willing to go to any lengths to get it. (It's been far too long since I read the books, so I could be making all of this up, but that's how I think of it.) Bilbo just found it, and Frodo inherited it. They were decent, peaceful hobbits, with no greed in their hearts to begin with, so the Ring had to create it before being able to use it.

Di!

I don't disagree that Éowyn suffered from unrequited love. I just never saw it as her main motive or even sub-motive, if you will. It figures into the equation somewhere, but not so much as a "Gosh, he doesn't love me. Guess I'll go die in battle," as it is "Fine! I may have no love and no hope but I'm not goind down without a fight." (Biased? Looking for waht I want to find? Just a bit.)

The movies did play that up far, far too much. And then didn't give anytime to the real love story. Yes, this still upsets me. And I would pay good money JUST for the rest of the Éowyn/Faramir footage.

But PJ makes me love the relationship between the two brothers so much, and I feel so much for Faramir in his quiet hurt and dignity (swoon swoon swoon) in the face of his father's cold rejection , and I love Boromir's farewell to Faramir so much, that I just don't mind the gaps in logic or the departure from canon.

Exactly! Who cares about logic when you get a great character scene?

MithLuin, wow! Extensive and interesting analysis. That was essentially how I thought of it as well, just not as clearly or meticulously. As you said, it's not the concept of an Elven teleconference that bothers me. It does kind of make sense that as the lord and lady of the last strongholds of Elvendom in Middle Earth, Elrond and Galadriel would have been in communication somehow. It's the dialogue. Cate Blanchett (who, interestingly, is currently doing a show in NY with Hugo Weaving) and the visuals are the only reasons that scene works, for me.

More replies later. (Trying to write my lab report now.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But I really signed up because I saw there was an Athrabeth thread...I should post in that at some point

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please!

And did I mention please?

And great post.

[Erunáme]

Bilbo just found it, and Frodo inherited it. They were decent, peaceful hobbits, with no greed in their hearts to begin with, so the Ring had to create it before being able to use it.

Bilbo may have found it, but he did know that it was Gollum's...and there's the bit about him lying about how he got it. So I don't think Bilbo was entirely decent about the situation.

[Cerin]

There is further discrepancy with PJ's theory of the seductive power of the Ring and why Faramir could not be seen to be oblivious to it .... Merry, Pippen, Sam, Aragorn (all of human stock) are in closer proximity, and for far longer, than Faramir .... and yet they are magically not tempted to seize the Ring?

I don't think there is a discrepancy. Hobbits are supposed to be more resillient and less affected by the Ring, hence Bilbo not being completely corrupted by it for many years unlike Isildur.

The difference, I think, between Gollum and Bilbo/Frodo is intent and character.

I think they messed up Tolkien's Ring in many ways, and it bugs me no end.

With respect to Sass's above comment, I don't think Filmamir was tempted by the Ring. He wasn't intending to take it for his own use, but to turn it over to his father in order to prove he was capable of doing something right and to perhaps gain some approval if not actual love from the old curmudgeon. If the Ring had once ensnared him, I believe nothing --not even Nazgûl over Osgiliath, could have induced him to give it up.

Regarding Eru's comment above, I disagree with the notion that Isildur was instantly corrupted by the Ring. I think people tend to confuse the idea of the Ring's corrupting influence over time with the idea of the Ring being instantly and overwhelmingly appealing to people on sight or touch. Add to that a feeling of justification in claiming the Ring (no matter how contrived re: Isildur, Gollum and even Bilbo after the fact) and I believe you have an irresistible recipe for ensnarement for anyone, hobbit or human, of whatever character.

Regarding Mossy's comment above, I think circumstance is also vital in looking at the differences in how they reacted. I don't at all like to imagine what might have happened if Merry and Pippin had been in the situation Déagol and Sméagol found themselves in. I don't think it's the case that there has to be something wicked in someone for them to be immediately ensnared by a sense of the Ring's overpowering beauty and desirability. If they have even the most tenuous reason for justifying that it might be -- should be -- theirs and circumstance to facilitate acting on that impulse, watch out. This isn't the case with Frodo; he is given the Ring outright before ever having set eyes on it.

[yovargas]

Yes. Since I orginally came to praise Ceasar, not to bury him ....... TTT is quite often overlooked in any discusion of the films. Even on TORC, both Fellowship and Return generated more reviews than TTT. But no matter.
On my last viewing, after doggedly refusing to skip over the usual offending scenes, I've arrived at the conclusion that TTT is structurally the best of the three. It deviates the most from the book, and it is certainly not the most lyrical; but I do now consider it the most consistent in that the script holds truest to its own internal logic. And so, I also find it a better crafted film with the least amount of discord. The interweaving of story lines actually work quite well, changing between them is smoother and less abrupt than ROTK where I felt like I could never find solid ground for the first hour or so.

Yup.

The Two Towers will never replace Fellowship as the most loved. But it does deserve a second look.

TTT has always been my favorite. It is, IMO, clearly the best, for the reasons you cite above, and others as well.

And none of the bits that bug you people but me. (Filmamir ain't Bookamir - get over it already!!! :P:P:P)

[Primula Baggins]

Though all the films have a place in my heart , I have to put TTT last. I think it's the fragmented story lines—unavoidable but still, for me, a problem. The characters are separated before the beginning of the film and are still separated at the end. It gives the whole film a disjointed feeling.

I'm not complaining about the way PJ handled the structure—he probably did it as well as it could be done (other than the lack of VoS). This story, broken into three parts, must have a middle part like this.

[Rowanberry]

Strangely enough, TTT was the one of the LOTR movies that I saw the most times on the big screen. Although I am very critical to some of the changes from the books, there was something in that movie that made me want to see it again and again. (And no, it wasn't the eye candy called Éomer. )

I think that, the parts where the narrative followed the book most closely were just fine. I wasn't bothered by the elves at Helm's Deep, although they weren't really necessary; this scene could have been made like it was in the book, so that there would have already been a small garrison at the fortress. The "Arwen's fate" scene was very touching, in spite of giving the impression that she would linger for ever; the tragedy of her choice became very palpable. And, Théoden grieving for his son still gets me all teary-eyed.

But, there were several "WTF?" moments as well. Alatar, you definitely aren't the only one who hates the teleconference scene! Maybe the idea wasn't that bad, but the execution. Aragorn's false death was the most unnecessary addition. Théoden's exorcism, and especially his transformation after it, was too dramatic to be believable - he was made too old, haggard and demented in the beginning. (Not to even mention Gimli's idiotic "nervous system" line in the EE. )

The changes to Faramir's character didn't bother me; although, I also think that, the scene with Boromir and Denethor in Osgiliath should have been already in the TE. What I didn't approve was Faramir's men mugging Gollum in the EE; and, taking the hobbits to Osgiliath simply made no sense. Just think of it: they were supposed to be already on the east bank of the Anduin, but the trip to Osgiliath must have brought them back to the west bank, because the eastern part of the city was taken by the orcs!

And, the Voice of Saruman scene should definitely have been in the end of TTT instead of the beginning of ROTK.

[Erunáme]

TTT was on TBS tonight and as there wasn't anything better on TV after Desperate Housewives , I left it on. A bit of it bugged me though and I have a question since I'm terrible at keeping the movie and book separate. Whenever Frodo was with Faramir, was the Ring openly talked about...I mean in front of the other men? In the movie, Frodo tells Faramir very loudly in front of the other men that the Ring will not save Gondor. Then a bit later, Sam tells Faramir that Boromir died because he tried to take the Ring, again, in front of all the other men. I wouldn't think it would be a wise thing to be talking about the Ring in front of the other men, because they would know about its existence and be tempted. I also wouldn't think Frodo would go talking about it in front of a lot of people. He would be more secretive of it.

It's been a while since I read the book. I'm starting them again though.

Oh another part that bothered me: Frodo saying that the Nazgûl have come all kind of trance-like (not sure how better to describe it). That's just silly to me. So in Osgiliath he has some sort of link with the Nazgûl?

To end on a good note: I tuned in just in time to see Arwen's Fate.