Stuff we STILL haven't seen....

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:26 pm

Two words:

cascading skulls.

Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:47 pm

Yes, the cascading skulls are horrid. And the drinking game is ridiculous. And PJ the Corsair's death scene is silly. And Aragorn beheading the Mouth of Sauron during the parlay is about as unTolkien as it gets (though I must say I'm curious to hear what you thought about that, soli).

But there are lots of really wonderful additions (at least to me). In addition to the scene with the star of Eärendil shown in my avatar, with Sam saying there is light and beauty up there that no shadow can touch, there is also the scene with the head of the old king briefly being crowned by the sunlight. And I actually like the way they handled Frodo and Sam getting captured by the orcs and then escaping. In general the journey in Mordor is improved by being extended because it gives a better sense of the endurance of the two hobbits than the brevity of the theatrical version. I was very, very moved by Éowyn's description of Tolkien/Faramir's dream. I also liked very much the interaction between her and Merry, where Merry talks about wanting to get to see his friends again. And Éomer's reaction to finding Éowyn on the field of battle gets me every time, and his look of worried concern is the best part of the Houses of the Healing scene where Aragorn is tending to her. And the scene where Gandalf recites Faramir's words about the kings of Gondor is absolutely brilliant (that should never have been cut). Oh, and Faramir telling Denethor that he would not use the ring to save Minas Tirith, and also his neat interaction with Pippin. Very nice.

And (I am very much in the minority on this, and you are going to hate me for it, soli) I also quite like the Witchking/Gandalf scene.

Post by **solicitr** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:28 pm

And Aragorn beheading the Mouth of Sauron during the parlay is about as unTolkien as it gets (though I must say I'm curious to hear what you thought about that, soli).

Appalling. Completely un-Tolkien, who took notions of legality *very* seriously- indeed an underpinning theme always is the necessity of legitimacy and virtue.

PJ throughout shows a disturbing tendency towards a 'might makes right' ethos,* which would have horrified Tolkien. So the King Returned begins his reign with an act of perfidy?

WTH not use Tolkien's version, which once again points up the *difference* between the contending sides?

----------------------

*Again, the King of the Dead sequence. As PJ rewrites it, Anduril is important not as a symbol of legitimate royalty, but because it's a Powerful Artifact with which the bearer can bend the Dead to his will. And that is what film-Aragorn has to do; the Dead King is not swayed by any notion of allegiance or obligation to the Heir, but by a Magic Sword at his throat

Post by **yovargas** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:16 am

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
solicitr wrote:and those to RK nothing

<-------------

V-dude listed several reasons why, despite a couple big flubs (good god PoTD

) I definitely prefer ROTK's EE.

(And I never understood why killing the Mouth of Sauron bothered people so much after killing about a billion orcs.

)

Post by **Impenitent** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:16 am

yov, killing the nominated representative in parley?! Dishonourable, ignoble, not done! It is not a legitimate act of war and Tolkien would have been horrified at the besmirchment of Aragorn's character.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:21 am

Yes, exactly.

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:38 am

Is there such a fiction as a "legitimate act of war"?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:45 am

There are laws of war, sf, as you know. You don't kill ambassadors, even on the battlefield.

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:48 am

What about "all's fair in love and war"?

War is legalized murder.

The details matter little to me.

Especially in a movie.

The SOB deserved it.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:55 am

I am no lover of war. But for heaven's sake, if we're going to fight them (and we are), let's follow the rules civilized nations have agreed on, some of them for many centuries. War is not made better by an "anything goes" approach. The details do matter, especially to the soldiers who have no choice but to do their duty and fight.

Post by **River** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:01 am

solicitr wrote:Two words:

cascading skulls.

Good grief. Every time I've purged that from my memory someone has to bring it up.

Oh yeah, and lopping the head off the Mouth of Sauron was NOT in Aragorn's character at all. He's better than that. His whole side is better than that.

I did like the added bits with Éowyn though. Those were well done. Éomer's reaction was both powerful and spot on, as was his presence in the healing scene. He was worried and concerned in the book too - he even got snippy with Aragorn.

Post by **Frelga** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:22 am

SF, no matter what you think about war, in Tolkien's verse there are clearly rules. Even Orcs didn't shoot at Aragorn when he wanted to parley at Helm's Deep.

Post by **yovargas** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:57 am

I really don't get it. What if it had been Sauron - would it have been okay to lop off his head? Considering the entire point of it all is to annihilate Sauron and all his power, getting mad that someone killed one of his minions always struck me as...um, odd. Sauron isn't some legitimate nation that follows the rules of civility. Mordor existed exclusively for evil and I can't see the error in treating it as such.

Post by **solicitr** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:13 am

Geez, Yov, next you'll be saying it would be OK to waterboard him...

Post by **yovargas** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:30 am

Only to get info out of him.

Post by **River** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:50 am

Part of Tolkien's point though is it's not okay to do evil in fighting evil. Which is why the way Faramir treats Gollum in the movies is also so galling.

Post by **Frelga** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:39 am

Yup, River. As book-Faramir said, "I wouldn't snare an Orc with a falsehood."

Or as Pratchett put it, 'Because it doesn't matter what he is. It matters what we are.' (Carpet People)

Post by **Elentári** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:16 am

sf wrote:

What about "all's fair in love and war"?

War is legalized murder.

The details matter little to me.

Especially in a movie.

I know the SOB deserved it, but if the good side sinks to the level of the other then they are no better than the bad guys.

It would have been better if Gandalf could have terrified the **** out of the guy and sent him running with his tail between his legs.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:01 pm

Frelga wrote:Yup, River. As book-Faramir said, "I wouldn't snare an Orc with a falsehood."

One of my favourite Faramir sayings. The man is awesome with a capital A.

*pauses for shameless Faramir swooning*

Or as Pratchett put it, 'Because it doesn't matter what he is. It matters what we are.' (Carpet People)

I have so got to read Pratchett. That is pure Tolkien: that's how he writes his good guys. And gals.

Erm, additional stuff ... well I've said it before, no harm in saying it all again.

I love the FotR:EE, prefer the TTT:EE to the TTT:TE (aren't these acronyms fun

) but the RotK:EE is my least favourite of the bunch because most of the additional stuff is really annoying.

I love the brothers in Osgiliath sequence in the TTT:EE. And the Ford of Isen.

Post by **yovargas** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:25 pm

Yup, River. As book-Faramir said, "I wouldn't snare an Orc with a falsehood."

But I would stab him with my sword.