Stuff we STILL haven't seen....

[Pearly Di]

But I would stab him with my sword.

Not if he was a prisoner in your custody, you wouldn't.

Nor if he was a messenger sent to negotiate or parley.

I hope.



Which is why Faramir's men in the films, kicking and beating a defenceless Gollum, should have been charged under the Geneva Convention.

[Dave_LF]

Is there such a fiction as a "legitimate act of war"?

Ah, but this is fiction we're talking about (sorry, all). In reality, war is dirty and ignoble, but in our fantasies it's still dignified and glorious.

[Elentári]

I found this response on Yahoo! Answers, when someone asked for the meaning of the phrase "All's fair in love and war"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 238AAvtKXt

Here is the relevant part:

....sometimes when a nation is intent on genocide, then the rules of war are ignored, as there is no motivation to minmise civilian casualties or to permit the taking of prisoners. however, in the absence of that wish to obliterate, rules govern the battlefield.

Even though generals will use a "ruse de guerre" to gain advantage, such ruses are tricks and deceptions rather than breaches of honour. killing an enemy general during a parley under a flag of truce may seem 'clever', but it does not qualify as a ruse de guerre, but is seem as the worst kind of betrayal and dishonour. it is pragmatic that such rules are adhered to. a deception like the woooden horse of Troy is probably the perfect example of a ruse de guerre which would not be seen as dishonourable - the Trojans were deceived, but it did not breach any code of conduct for war in the same way that a retreat into "dead ground" where the enemy couldn't spot a force is not dishonourable.

the expression "all's fair in love and war" is used by cads and bounders, not by men of honour.

[Alatar]

This would seem to be an ideal time to look at splitting off the vitriol so we can continue.

[Frelga]

Vitriol? I thought it was quite an interesting discussion.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I removed the off-topic posts (I thought I posted this before, but apparently it didn't go through for some reason).

[solicitr]

Anyway, historically the immunity of heralds/ambassadors/the white flag is consistent. We see it in Homer; we see it today. Beginning with the first Hague Convention (1874) abuses of the immunity (attacking those under a white flag, or the perfidious use of the white flag to mask an attack) have been defined as war crimes, and with good reason. Opposing forces need to negotiate from time to time, even if it's merely a two-hour local ceasefire to allow both sides to recover their wounded. Tolkien was tapping not merely some 'ruling class rules', but the values and practice of all civilised nations.

[yovargas]

Is there such a fiction as a "legitimate act of war"?

Ah, but this is fiction we're talking about (sorry, all).

Right, it's fiction and in this fictional world, the orcs and such aren't "soldiers", they're monsters. The RL ideas of war don't apply when we're talking about a war against hordes of monsters. Or at least I can't see why they would.

[solicitr]

Again, Yov, it's not what they are, but what *we* are. Anyway, the Mouth of Sauron is a Man (if that matters in a world with multiple sentient species).

[Alatar]

Please leave politics out of this? Please?

[Pearly Di]

Tolkien was tapping not merely some 'ruling class rules', but the values and practice of all civilised nations.

I completely agree.

Right, it's fiction and in this fictional world, the orcs and such aren't "soldiers", they're monsters. The RL ideas of war don't apply when we're talking about a war against hordes of monsters. Or at least I can't see why they would.

I think Tolkien shot himself in the foot a bit here. He presents the Orcs as mere cannon fodder: it's OK to kill them because they are demonic spirits, creatures of the underworld. The trouble is, he doesn't actually write them that way. He writes them as rational, thinking creatures.

But I don't lose sleep over the issue.

I feel compelled to quote from The Last Battle by CS Lewis. When the dwarfs shoot the horses (a despicable act), Eustace shrieks with rage and curses them, calling them "little swine". Tirian, the last Narnian king, rebukes Eustace for his language. True knights don't swear, he says: "hard knocks and courteous words are their only language."

I have to say that I'm totally with Eustace on that particular issue.

[ArathornJax]

I think there is the notion of what war should be, and what in reality it is, and only those who have been in combat know what I mean. When you serve in combat, the only thing you really care about are the people next to you, and trying to survive. There is no honor in it. There is no honor in killing people, the enemy solider, the civilian man, woman or child, maiming them, wounding them and disabling them for life, regardless whether it is done in an honorable way or in a dishonorable way. You kill and wound because you have to in order to accomplish the mission, in order to survive. The only honor I know of in war or combat is to accomplish the mission so you can get the heck out of there and back home.

Having said that I do believe it was totally out of character for Aragorn to act the way he did in the EE. Book Aragorn never acted that way. In a political way on a battlefield you would honor the truce. In the modern world that truce would not happen on the battlefield unless you were surrendering.

[solicitr]

In the modern world that truce would not happen on the battlefield unless you were surrendering.

That's simply not true. There are innumerable examples from the 'modern world.'

And 'those who have been in combat' will testify that there is all the diffence in the world between honorable and dishonorable conduct; that there are things *one simply does not do.* Yes, they fight for the men beside them; yes, they fight to accomplish the mission and get home in one piece. But accomplishing the mission means killing the enemy's soldiers- with as little harm to civilians as is possible.

Attitudes like the above are a shameful slap at those who liberated Europe from the Nazi tyranny- to accuse the men who fought and died in France and Belgium and Holland and Italy of being per se 'dishonorable' for being soldiers is the comfortable arrogance of pacifism.

[sauronsfinger]

This is a list from Wikipedia containing scenes which were filmed but not included in either the theatrical release of the EE's.

Fellowship of the Ring
Additional footage from the Battle of the Last Alliance in The Fellowship of the Ring prologue.
An obscure shot from the trailers of two Elven girls playing about in Rivendell.
Scene mentioned in The Fellowship of the Ring commentary, about an animal disrupting Frodo and Sam while they sleep, after seeing the Wood Elves. Many animals were used, including rabbits and deer.[10]
Dialogue from the Council of Elrond, such as Gandalf explaining how Sauron forged the One Ring.[10]
An attack by Orcs from Moria on Lothlórien after the Fellowship leaves Moria. Jackson replaced this with a more suspenseful entrance for the Fellowship. Much of the lost footage can be seen as promotional material on The Fellowship of the Ring theatrical DVD and tie-in books, documentary footage on the Extended Editions, and Trading Cards.
Longer scene of Boromir trying to take the Ring.[10]
Frodo seeing more parts of Middle Earth when he put the Ring on.[10]
More battle footage from Parth Galen.[10]
An attack on Frodo and Sam at the river Anduin by an Uruk-hai.[10]


The Two Towers
More Arwen footage, including a flashback scene of her first meeting with a beardless Aragorn (seen in The Two Towers trailer).
Faramir having a vision of Frodo becoming like Gollum.[13]
Footage of Arwen at Helm's Deep, cut by Jackson during a revision to the film's plot. Foreshadowing this sequence were scenes where Arwen and Elrond visit Galadriel at Lothlórien (seen in The Two Towers trailer). The scene was edited down to a telepathic communication between Elrond and Galadriel.[13]
Théoden speaking to the troops in the armoury, prior to the Battle of Helm's Deep.
Éowyn defending the refugees in the Glittering Caves from Uruk-hai intruders.[27]
An unknown scene displayed in The Two Towers trailer of Éomer lowering a spear while riding his horse in a forest.
Frodo and Sam fighting on the ground in Osgiliath (after Sam tackles Frodo away from the Ringwraith). The scene's fighting was deleted, but Frodo drawing Sting and pointing it at Sam after he is tackeled was left in.[28]


Return of the King
A line of dialogue during the death of Saruman, in which he reveals that Wormtongue poisoned Théodred, giving further context as to why Wormtongue kills Saruman and Legolas, in turn, kills Wormtongue.[29]
A conversation between Elrond and Arwen in a library in Rivendell, after Arwen decides to wait for Aragorn. Elrond leaves, saying, "You gave away your life's grace. I cannot protect you anymore."[30]
Sam using the Light of Eärendil to pass the Watchers at Cirith Ungol.
Aragorn having his armour fitted during the preparations for the Battle of the Black Gate. This was the final scene filmed during principal photography.[17]
Sauron fighting Aragorn at the Black Gate. A computer-generated Troll was placed over Sauron due to Jackson feeling the scene was inappropriate. Sauron is also seen in a beautiful form as Annatar, Giver of Gifts.[17]
Also at the Black Gate sequence, Pippin was seen in the trailer holding a wounded Merry.
Further epilogue footage, including that of Legolas and Gimli, as well as Éowyn and Faramir's wedding and Aragorn's death and funeral.[31]

The numbers refer to footnotes giving the source of the information.

Here is the site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_o ... e-Timeline

[yovargas]

I think Tolkien shot himself in the foot a bit here. He presents the Orcs as mere cannon fodder: it's OK to kill them because they are demonic spirits, creatures of the underworld. The trouble is, he doesn't actually write them that way. He writes them as rational, thinking creatures.

Right. It's an old debate amongst Tolkien fans, the whole moral quagmire that the Orcs present. The problem started with Tolkien, not PJ, and I dare say that the issue is a far greater problem for in the books than in the movies.

[solicitr]

It's a problem that Tolkien himself was aware of, and wrestled with mightily in his later years, without success. Certainly the Orcs were first invented in the Lost Tales as soulless monsters, convenient enemies to be dispatched without remorse; but eventually, especially after the LR, he realized his problem and in the Morgoth's Ring essays he can be seen trying any number of inventive but failed ways out of his dilemma. Orcs as robots? Orcs as beasts? Orcs descended from Elves/Men/stone? The closest he got, rather lamely, was the idea that Orcs would never accept quarter when offered it.

[Elentári]

Thanks, sf.

Out of that lot I would want to see

Fellowship of the Ring
Additional footage from the Battle of the Last Alliance in The Fellowship of the Ring prologue.

Dialogue from the Council of Elrond, such as Gandalf explaining how Sauron forged the One Ring.
An attack by Orcs from Moria on Lothlórien after the Fellowship leaves Moria.
Longer scene of Boromir trying to take the Ring.
Frodo seeing more parts of Middle Earth when he put the Ring on.
More battle footage from Parth Galen.


The Two Towers
More Arwen footage, including a flashback scene of her first meeting with a beardless Aragorn (seen in The Two Towers trailer).
Faramir having a vision of Frodo becoming like Gollum.
Théoden speaking to the troops in the armoury, prior to the Battle of Helm's Deep.
A scene displayed in The Two Towers trailer of Éomer lowering a spear while riding his horse in a forest.
Frodo and Sam fighting on the ground in Osgiliath (after Sam tackles Frodo away from the Ringwraith).

Return of the King
A line of dialogue during the death of Saruman, in which he reveals that Wormtongue poisoned Théodred, giving further context as to why Wormtongue kills Saruman and Legolas, in turn, kills Wormtongue.[
A conversation between Elrond and Arwen in a library in Rivendell, after Arwen decides to wait for Aragorn. Elrond leaves, saying, "You gave away your life's grace. I cannot protect you anymore."[
Sam using the Light of Eärendil to pass the Watchers at Cirith Ungol.
Aragorn having his armour fitted during the preparations for the Battle of the Black Gate.
Also at the Black Gate sequence, Pippin was seen in the trailer holding a wounded Merry.
Further epilogue footage, including that of Legolas and Gimli, as well as Éowyn and Faramir's wedding and Aragorn's death and funeral.[

I'm undecided about Éowyn defending the refugees in the Glittering Caves from Uruk-hai intruders.

[Padme]

I think Tolkien shot himself in the foot a bit here. He presents the Orcs as mere cannon fodder: it's OK to kill them because they are demonic spirits, creatures of the underworld. The trouble is, he doesn't actually write them that way. He writes them as rational, thinking creatures.

Right. It's an old debate amongst Tolkien fans, the whole moral quagmire that the Orcs present. The problem started with Tolkien, not PJ, and I dare say that the issue is a far greater problem for in the books than in the movies.

I agree Yov. I have often wondered what the issues with the Easterlings are to be handled. When Faramir says they are just like us defending what they believe is right...well to me that says it's not always as black and white as Tolkien liked to keep things. I think he at times tried to make things a bit less clear in the good/evil aspects of his books. Which, imho, would better represent reality.

The other thing I had thought about was at some time wouldn't Gondor need to sit down with the other kingdoms and countries, not just Rohan but everyone?

I don't know maybe its better left as a story and not too much reality put into it. Maybe I should not think so far beyond the story, right.


Anyway on to other things we have not seen.

There are plenty I would like to see. I am not sure I would ever want to see Arwen at Helms Deep, simply because Liv isn't all that graceful with her limb movement. Or wasn't at the time. To me she seemed like a lanky teenager in her movements at time, not quite sure of how to move her own body.

That said I would love to see more of the Éowyn scenes. As well as the meeting of Arwen and Aragorn. I do wonder if there will be any Aragorn/Arwen scenes in the upcoming movies. I have a hard time believing there will be much of that type of thing as The Hobbit is a different type of middle earth story.

And that said...
I hope at some point they release all of the movies as a boxed set with all the missing scenes included. Even if they are not in the movie, I'd like to have a disk of all the missing scenes at some point, this includes the upcoming movies.

[solicitr]

The other thing I had thought about was at some time wouldn't Gondor need to sit down with the other kingdoms and countries, not just Rohan but everyone?

I can see it now: a United Middle-earth Nations, where the Easterlings and Haradrim and Dunlendings and Variags of Khand will with one voice condemn Gondorian Imperialism, denounce the International Eldarist Conspiracy and demand Elessar's trial for war crimes, followed of course by demands for lots and lots of money. The UMEN Commission on Speaking Peoples' Rights will ban all 'defamation' of Sauronism, and insist on the Orcs' Right of Return to Moria. Meanwhile hip young Gondorians will slouch around in Witch-King T-shirts and demonstrate in favor of oppressed Orcs and their freedom fighters, who after all only slaughter and eat people in response to Western oppression.

Then there is Middle-earth PETA, whose Rohan branch unfortunately push their "Horses Are People Too" campaign in a country whose rather medieval king is willing to get, well, medieval....

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Oh, for heaven's sake. This is not a forum for discussing political views, or criticizing other people's political views.