Why is TTT the least liked movie?

[yovargas]

This is probably old rehashy type stuff but...

I hadn't seen the movies for about a year. A couple weeks ago I decided to give 'em a go again. I watched FOTR two weekends ago, TTT this previous weekend, and hope to get to ROTK this following weekend. Anyways, watching them again, it struck me, yet again, how much better TTT is then FOTR for me. Don't get me wrong, I love all three films, but to me, TTT is clearly the most well put together and the most consistently well made film. Watching FOTR, there are cringe-worthy moments for me of small and large size literally every few minutes (usually immediately following something spectacular ). With TTT, I don't have one single major complaint. I kinda find Faramir's sudden change of heart a little forced, and I don't like some of the cuts between Helm's Deep and the Entmoot. A few lines, noticeably Gimli's are silly. But that's about it. I have nothing else to complain about in this movie. So...well, this wasn't supposed to be a "Why I love TTT" thread, I just wanted to know what it is that others don't like when I see so little that isn't good-to-great. I don't get it.

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

I want to know why ROTK is so praised.

I think TTT is better overall than ROTK, although ROTK has many brilliant moments, it also has many parts that I see as self-indulgent and/or cringe-worthy, such as the paths of the dead (especially in the EE), the corsairs (especially in the EE), the handling of the Gondorian army and the defense of Osigiliath are problematic for me as well.

But there are also brilliant moments in ROTK as well, but it has the least replay value for me.

TTT does not have that problem. There are some weak points as well, but I understand some of the changes better.

BrianIs AtYou

[yovargas]

ROTK is extremely uneven for me. Huge chunks that I find poorly executed or just simply dull, with huge chunks that I find impossibly glorious and breathtaking. The moments on Mt Doom are, by far, my favorite movie moments ever. But overall, it is probably my least fav (I'll make a final judgement on that when I see them this weekend).

[Faramond]

In the beginning, everything is new and spectacular, and all is discovery.

In the end, there is completion, and the circles are closed, and there is the discovery of the final shape.

The middle is a slog.

Unless it's not. If the middle is the best part, even as the beginning and end are brilliant, then you really have something special. The very substance of the story is brilliant.

Looks like you've found something special, yov.

[yovargas]

In the beginning, everything is new and spectacular, and all is discovery.

Would be a nice explanation of people's reactions if the movie wasn't some five years old by now.

[Faramond]

The impression is made the first time you watch the movie. Subsequent emotions about the movie are built around those impressions.

[axordil]

Or in LOTR's case, perhaps the second. Remember first viewing syndrome.

[vison]

Whatever.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

My guess is the reason why TTT is least-liked is that it has the biggest points of departure from Tolkien's book, namely, (1) the wargrider battle with Aragorn's accompanying near-death experience, (2) Haldir leading a brigade of Elves to supplement the defense of the Hornburg, (3) the roundabout way that the Ents take to deciding to attack Isengard, (4) Faramir's departure from his book character, and (5) the absence of the Voice of Saruman scene. That's a big mental adjustment for those who are so deeply entrenched with the book.

That being said, I know there are a number of people who think that the Rohirrim were the best-executed culture in Jackson’s films, including the music from Howard Shore’s score.

Although both Bree and Lothlórien are much darker in Jackson’s film than they are in Tolkien’s book, and understandably so, I still like FOTR the best. I watched most of it today while I was home ill from work. I’ve gained a whole new appreciation for the prologue after participating in Alatar’s thread: The Lord of the Rings – The Adaptations. The FOTR prologue is just brilliant for setting the mood while providing requisite background for the three films.

[Alatar]

Of course that thread might be more useful if I got onto the next part...

[yovargas]

My guess is the reason why TTT is least-liked is that it has the biggest points of departure from Tolkien's book, namely, (1) the wargrider battle with Aragorn's accompanying near-death experience, (2) Haldir leading a brigade of Elves to supplement the defense of the Hornburg, (3) the roundabout way that the Ents take to deciding to attack Isengard, (4) Faramir's departure from his book character, and (5) the absence of the Voice of Saruman scene. That's a big mental adjustment for those who are so deeply entrenched with the book.

Ah, yes, that I could see. Anyone else agree with this? I'm a total revisionist so I totally don't care about any of that. And to me, Frodo sending Sam away is a bigger departure then all of those combined (and I don't care about that one either!).


vison

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree that the main reason why TTT is less-liked in Tolkien fandom is because of its departures from the book (although an argument could be made that it is actually the movie that stays most true to the book, though I won't get into that here). But I think from a cinematic point of view, the main reason it is less appreciated is that it just doesn't really have a satisfying conclusion. I don't dislike Sam's speech the way some do (I rather like it, actually) but it just doesn't feel like the film really ends. I think including the Voice of Saruman would have made a huge difference in having a satisfying climax.

[yovargas]

People don't like Sam's speech?
Ya'll are mean.



Oddly, I find TTT's ending the most satysfying. But certainly it has at least as much closure as FOTR, no?

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

To be very biased, the changes they made to Faramir really ruined TTT for me. He's always been one of my favourite characters and my favourite part of the the book is Frodo's journey through Osgiliath. As a movie, it is better than the sadly uneven ROTK, though not as good as the beautiful FOTR. The other thing, and this could just be me, was Helm's Deep. It was so. long. The build up and the embellishments and the extra things -- it was too much and felt repetitive. I'm all for a good battle, but I tend to skip quite a bit of Helm's Deep until the montage with Sam's speech, the arrival of Éomer, etc.

So, to sum up, TTT just didn't feel quite right. Something jarred -- the changes, the atmosphere, the pacing. It wasn't quite Tolkien. FOTR was.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I don't dislike Sam's speech the way some do (I rather like it, actually) but it just doesn't feel like the film really ends.

I must have missed that thread. I thought people universally liked Sam's speech.

He's always been one of my favourite characters and my favourite part of the the book is Frodo's journey through Osgiliath.

I think you mean Ithilien, Mossy dear. The trip to Osgiliath is what many people seem to object most to in TTT.

Of course that thread might be more useful if I got onto the next part...

Well what's stopping you? Get on with it, lad!

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

He's always been one of my favourite characters and my favourite part of the the book is Frodo's journey through Osgiliath.

I think you mean Ithilien, Mossy dear. The trip to Osgiliath is what many people seem to object most to in TTT.

Oh, I am so embarrassed.

Yet another reason not to write posts at 2am while memorizing paradigms.

Ithilien! I meant Ithilien!

[Aravar]

For me,

The deviation from what actually happens in the plot. This deviation being used to bring in more silly action scenes rather than to attempt to show what happened.

Turning Théoden into a magically possessed fool, rather than a king wieghed down by grief who is bourght to hope by Gandalf.

The diminution of the Rohirrim from a stern warrior people into a bunch of weeping cowards.

Osgiliation with the bizarre scene of Frodo offering the Ring to a Nazgûl.

The complete butchery of the Ents. Treebeard the idiot. The Ents who do nothing.

Pointless an implausible action stunts: shield surfing, cliff diving, and worst of all the charge at the end.

It only looks like M-E, it doesn't feel like it.

[Primula Baggins]

For me, TTT is visually amazing and has some powerful scenes. Most of the things that are "wrong" with it don't bother me—I always had trouble staying interested in the Ents in the book, too, for example, and Faramir was never a centrally important character to me or even particularly real, so the changes and deficiencies in their portrayal are not fatal to my experience of the film.

Yet it's still my least favorite of the three, and I think it's Sam's speech that does it. It's too high-flown and artificial to be Sam talking. I wish they had kept to the short, simple version originally filmed and not stuffed in all that montage and voice-over. Not only does it not connect for me emotionally, it's the kind of thing that signals "last-minute filmmaker panic" to me—a clear artifact of the poor decision to leave the Voice of Saruman out of the film.

[axordil]

The Ending of TTT/beginning of ROTK is ripe for a Phantom Edit. That said, I think TTT's chunk of the plot is a story with a beginning but no real end, either in the books or the movie. Thus ANY ending will feel "grafted on."