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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:46 pm 
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I exercise my "nice" by not saying "ugh!" about some of the above choices. :halo:

Maria, a little knowledge can go a long way to ruin a movie experience. ;) Like reforging Narsil with me - I don't know a lot about sword-making, but I can see so many things wrong with that scene that I quite forget to enjoy it. :D

V wrote:
The dialogue between Aragorn and Galadriel. Pretty much the only dialogue that the filmmakers invented that was up to the level of Tolkien's.

I would add Aragon's "Today is not that day!" speech to that list.
Um... sorry, would you remind me which dialogue between Aragorn and Galadriel? I can't recall any that was memorable. :oops:

P.S.: Argh! New page again! What is this new devilry?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:29 pm 
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from Frelga

Quote:
Maria, a little knowledge can go a long way to ruin a movie experience. Like reforging Narsil with me - I don't know a lot about sword-making, but I can see so many things wrong with that scene that I quite forget to enjoy it.


A most excellent statement. I have often said in these discussions that - for some - an exhaustive knowledge of Tolkien was a distinct handicap in enjoying the films on their own merits. Your example of the sword making illustrates this perfectly.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:39 pm 
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Except I think Frelga wasn't referring to a knowledge of Tolkien, but a knowledge of how a sword would actually be reforged. You don't do it by melting the edges together, as shown in the film; the blade would be very fragile and break easily along the old lines. The blade has to be formed from a single piece of metal, so I guess they would have melted all the pieces and formed a new one? Not sure that wouldn't weaken the metal somehow, though.

I do hold them more responsible for this kind of error than an inconsistency with Tolkien. The first job is to make the world feel real (even if there'smagic in it).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:49 pm 
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I know this is supposed to be a thread about what PJ got right.

So I will say no more . . . :x

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Primula - but it applies just the same. Too much knowledge can get in the way of enjoying a film.... and that is in regarding the making of swords, ones knowledge of the source material, or anything else.

For example, almost every film or TV show based in a public school I have ever seen drives me crazy because of its gross inaccuracy. Classes with eight to ten kids in it instead of 25 to 36. Teachers who are shown with one fantastic (or poor) lesson which lasts five minutes while a regular class is 50 to 60 minutes. We see the teacher in one class but what about the other six or seven hours a day they put in? And I am just getting warmed up and could go on for hours.

Since I spent 34 years teaching in the public school system, my exhaustive knowledge of the system is a distinct handicap in accepting and enjoying a film set in a public school on its own merits.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:01 pm 
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I guess I have trouble thinking of any kind of knowledge as a handicap. Sure, it means it takes a stronger rope to suspend your disbelief—but that can be done, if the fiction is competent, and if the inaccuracies are important to the story instead of being just careless or gratuitous (i.e., if they could just as easily have gotten it right).

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:12 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
V wrote:
The dialogue between Aragorn and Galadriel. Pretty much the only dialogue that the filmmakers invented that was up to the level of Tolkien's.

I would add Aragon's "Today is not that day!" speech to that list.
Um... sorry, would you remind me which dialogue between Aragorn and Galadriel? I can't recall any that was memorable. :oops:


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Galadriel: (to Aragorn) I have nothing greater to give, than the gift you already bear. <She touches the Evenstar> Am meleth dîn. I ant e-guil Arwen Undómiel pelitha. (for her love, I fear the grace of Arwen Evenstar will diminish.)

Aragorn: Aníron i e broniatha ar [...] periatham [...] amar hen. Aníron e ciratha a Valannor. (I would have her leave these shores, and be with her people. I would have her take the ship to Valinor.

Galadriel: That choice is yet before her. You have your own choice to make, Aragorn. To rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into with all that is left of your kin. Namárie! (Farewell!) [...] i gerich. Dan, ú-'eveditham, Elessar. (There is much you have yet to do. We shall not meet again, Elessar.)


Of course, much of it IS from Tolkien, now that I think of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:06 pm 
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The reforging of Narsil used *magic* and is therefore excusable. I've made a knife in a blacksmith's forge before and know the process involved in my bones- but that scene didn't bother me because it was so far from reality as to be magic. So obviously, the elves used some magic in the reforging. :) And so they should!

As for Shadowfax's "stunt double"... well with the humans they were always careful not to show the faces of the doubles. The first time I saw TTT and Gandalf and Aragorn were riding up at the end and talking, it utterly ruined the moment for me because I noticed immediately that it was a different horse. Horses have faces- that's all there is to it- and for some reason they thought any old grey horse would do. :nono:

The other horsie thing that bothered me were the Black Rider's mounts. Why in the world would someone shoe a horse with the nail coming so high in the hoof? You risk laming the horse. And not clinching the nail down means the shoe wouldn't stay on. And if the naiil is not part of holding the shoe on, and is some sort of offensive weapon(?), then it was a bad idea because the horse seemed to be gashing his opposite legs with the nails from all the blood that was running down it's leg.

A *perfect* thing in the movie was when Bilbo accused Gandalf of wanting the ring for himself and Gandalf got bigger and the walls of Bad End seemed to flex a bit. THAT was cool. :) Very appropriate, I thought. Kind of like Neo in the Matrix when he learns he can control everything.

edit: not that I mean that walls flexing means the same thing other than showing an excess of power available in the individuals involved.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Quote:
I would add Aragon's "Today is not that day!" speech to that list.


Sorry, Frelga, but we'll have to disagree. To me it sounds like bad ersatz-Henry V; and not remotely Tolkienian, to boot.

Now Théoden at the Pelennor- that is a Tolkien battle speech!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:32 pm 
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For me, the best parts that PJ got right were:

- signing up Alan Lee & John Howe, which lead to him getting right the sets/locations, esp. Hobbiton, Rivendell, Moria, Edoras, Helms Deep & Minas Tirith
- the costumes
- Howard Shore's music
- the Gollum schizo scene
- Gandalf and the Balrog
- the final scenes in the Shire and the Grey Havens (some hurts go too deep...)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:40 pm 
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"One" thing PJ (and his team) did very well indeed:

95% of the visuals. I'm thinking more cinematography and editing than art direction (which I also scored very high across the board :) ) and effects (which were generally great, but with an occasional clunker). Only a handful of what I think of as distractingly framed or composed shots.

If you turn off the sound and go simply by looks, LOTR is amazing.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:21 am 
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Teremia wrote:
-- almost every shot of real mountains! (thank you, New Zealand)


Yes, thank you, New Zealand!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:45 am 
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Pure emotion.

For all of the films' faults (and there are very, very many), they pack an emotional wallop that may never be matched. ROTK still makes me cry in more than a half dozen different places (I watched the three films over the past three nights, for the first time in a couple of years).

I'm very glad to be a transcendentalist!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:34 am 
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:cry: Me too! Great point, Voronwë!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:36 pm 
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By the time Frodo says "...here at the end of all things." I'm pretty much guaranteed to be an emotional mess. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:40 pm 
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*agrees with Voron* FotR is my main weeper for some reason, but RotK is another biggie.

I love the cut scene from the council of Elrond where Gandalf reads out the words on the ring. It's totally out of context, but it's fabulously done.

Almost everything involving Galadriel, except the 'In the place of a dark Lord' speech. All that voice distortion and so on ruined it, when Cate Blanchett's skill could have brought across that power alone.

Frodo's smile at the Grey Havens. If I'm right, it's the first time he really smiles properly since the Council of Elrond, not counting when he's recovering in Rivendell after destroying the ring.

Ian Mckellin and Saruman as Gandalf and Saruman respectively.

"Your staff is broken"

Gandalf leeching Saruman from Théoden, but not the actual change from Old, decrepit Théoden to young, strong Théoden.

The Golden Hall and its surroundings: perfect.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:55 pm 
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I love that last smile of Frodo's, Crucifer. In one of his letters, Tolkien said that Frodo"went to a purgatory and toa rewrd, for a while: a period of refletionnd peace nda gaining of truer udnerstanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." That is what that smile says to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Another vote for 'Frodo's last smile.' It's I think the first time since the opening of FR we've seen Frodo without care and worry in his eyes. Perhaps his reunion with Bilbo at Rivendell, but that's it. The Healing conveyed wonderfully in one shot: PJ actually can be a good filmmaker once in a while.

I'll have to disagree with the 'exorcism of Théoden.' Cheap and cheesy, an intrusion from a fiction-universe completely alien to Tolkien.

But this is a good-stuff thread:

Again, Théoden's speech/poem before the Charge.

The scene with Éowyn and Wormtongue (with Genuine Tolkien Texttm). However, I do wish that Grima's makeup didn't just shriek Villain! Villain! Villain!)

Boromir's death

The appearance of the Eagles at the Morannon

The Beacons, no matter how absurd their placement and the circumstances of their lighting

Frodo at the bridge, and the Morgul-host marching out

Saruman's Nuremburg Rally (invented, but could have happened just so)

Certain sets: Edoras, Rivendell, Minas Tirith.

The Prologue from the Gladden Fields onward (the Last Alliance business starts as a mistake and with Sauron's appearance becomes simply silly).

(Huge continuity error- on the first day out from Hobbiton Sam declares that it's the farthest from home he's ever been; but a day's march later immediately accuses Merry and Pippin of raiding Maggot's crops- so how would Sam know where he was?)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:15 pm 
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Frodo's last smile gives me goose bumps, but his flight on the eagle makes me weep.

As does Pippin's conversation with Gandalf about death. The first time I watched that after Gary's death I was a basket case. :)

The extended version scene with Boromir and Faramir at Osgiliath was entirely in tune with Tolkien, I thought. In fact, much of how Boromir was handled made his character more real for me. I simply despised him in the book and didn't quite understand why Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas took so much time to honor him when they could have been chasing orcs. Movie Boromir moved me to pity for his flaws and admiration for his strength. (And Sean Bean was perfect casting.)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:33 pm 
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I wrote:
The Prologue from the Gladden Fields onward


Anyone else think that the Gladden Fields sequence is very Werner Herzog-ish?


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