Why Smaug's Death Needs to Wait for the 2nd Film

[Primula Baggins]

Fortunately, there is only one John Rhys-Davies, and he's the one actor in the universe who can not be cast for any of those 13 roles.

Still wondering how they're going to handle 13 Dwarves. My long-held idea for the F guys in the Silmarillion movie (give every one a different favorite color that he wears every day) might work here—but with 13, all on-screen at the same time much of the time, the effect might be a bit Munchkinian.

Disney was onto something with seven of them, with Grumpy/Sleepy/Sneezy/Sleazy/Snappy/Slappy/Cottontail or whatever it was.

Quite seriously, this is something that would be keeping me awake at night if I were a screenwriter on this project. Yikes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

However, what GdT thinks about things and about the script and his approach to directing, etc., will be lots of fun to talk about but are really not hard information.

There will be plenty of hard information that will come out once the script is finished. The things I mentioned are hard facts. Where the first movie ends. How much of the LOTR appendicies are incorporated into the second film. Whether there is a largely made-up battle of Dol Guldur. Etc.

Fortunately, there is only one John Rhys-Davies, and he's the one actor in the universe who can not be cast for any of those 13 roles.

I hope that they can get actors as good as JRD to play the dwarves. He did a fine job. The problem with Gimli was with the writing and the direction, not with the acting.

In my humble opinion, of course.

[Primula Baggins]

However, what GdT thinks about things and about the script and his approach to directing, etc., will be lots of fun to talk about but are really not hard information.

There will be plenty of hard information that will come out once the script is finished. The things I mentioned are hard facts. Where the first movie ends. How much of the LOTR appendicies are incorporated into the second film. Whether there is a largely made-up battle of Dol Guldur. Etc.

True. But I wonder how much of that even GdT will actually give us, in indisputable form.

What am I saying—nothing about these films is going to be indisputable, even when they're out on DVD in three separate forms with appendices.

Fortunately, there is only one John Rhys-Davies, and he's the one actor in the universe who can not be cast for any of those 13 roles.

I hope that they can get actors as good as JRD to play the dwarves. He did a fine job. The problem with Gimli was with the writing and the direction, not with the acting.

In my humble opinion, of course.

He did a fine job. But he's not my favorite actor—rarely the light touch with him, or subtlety. That compounded the real problem which was, as you say, in the writing and direction.

Gimli still had some fine moments.

[solicitr]

Man if I have to endure Gimli times 13 I will scream in the theater and throw things.

I don't think we have to worry too much about the latter- partly based on GdT's comments, partly on the fact that you can't have an ensemble piece with thirteen similarly-costumed and made-up characters without trying to distinguish their personalities (a la every WWII fim ever made)- and most of all because of the simple fact (which GdT is I'm sure aware of) that Thorin sets the tone, and without Thorin's immense and prickly dignitas you don't have much of a story.

I totally agree with Alatar about the break-point. Bilbo grows from mere baggage to independent and resourceful adventurer in Mirkwood: his 'growth' in that sense is completed with the escape from Thranduil.

His *further* growth into wisdom and higher morality, of course, is the next 'stage' of his journey, culminating with the giving of the Arkenstone.

Besides, postponing Smaug's debut until Part II gives the f/x people more time......

[N.E. Brigand]

Still wondering how they're going to handle 13 Dwarves. My long-held idea for the F guys in the Silmarillion movie (give every one a different favorite color that he wears every day) might work here—but with 13, all on-screen at the same time much of the time, the effect might be a bit Munchkinian.

I don't think the dwarves need be too distinctive --most of them are nearly interchangeable in the book-- and have thought that they might best be handled as a group, like the nine junior samurai in Kurosawa's Sanjuro.

[Primula Baggins]

Realistically I think that's what they'll have to do, N.E. It's just yet another place where Tolkien's story does not fit the rigid conventions of commercial screenwriting (never have a named character on screen who has no essential individual function in the story; keep all characters distinct from each other).

[vison]

I wish they could do it without the SFX team, myself.

Or, if they have to have SFX teams, tie their hands behind their backs.

[Primula Baggins]

Smaug might present a bit of a challenge done as a hand puppet.

[vison]

Smaug might present a bit of a challenge done as a hand puppet.

Oh, I don't know.

I just know that there are going to be guys saying, "Hey, we can do this, that or the other thing!!!! And it's so COOL!!!!!!" and then the carnage begins. Next? Scrubbing bubbles.

[yovargas]

No fair picking the worst of the CGI. I imagine even you would admit some of LOTR's effects were very beautiful!

[vison]

No fair picking the worst of the CGI. I imagine even you would admit some of LOTR's effects were very beautiful!

There were beautiful things galore in the movie.

I can't think of any SFX that I thought were really splendid, though.

[yovargas]

Not even



or



or



?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, no, this is what was spectacular:

[yovargas]

That too.

[vison]

I can't see any of those pictures.

[Primula Baggins]

Neither can I. Tsk, tsk!

Edit: I quoted them to get at the links, which I copied and pasted into my browser, and I have to say I'm of Voronwë's opinion.

[Alatar]

Never mind the action shots. Try producing Prims sig without a computer. People talk about SFX without acknowledging the fact that even the most basic environments shots used SFX.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The images should be viewable now. And I reduced their sizes so that they shouldn't stretch the screen.

[Primula Baggins]

Thanks, Voronwë. I was going to do that this morning if you hadn't—was too tired last night.

Alatar makes a good point about the pervasiveness of SFX. A computer "matte painting" can look more real than one painted on glass and held in front of the camera can; elements in it can move, for example.

And, as yov points out, there are whole characters who only exist on screen because of SFX. For me they work to varying degrees, but Gollum and the Balrog are definitely two of the successes. The first time I saw the Balrog, leaking smoke and ash from every crack at every step, and saw the air rippling with heat in front of its mouth as it roared, I was certain of what I had already guessed, that these guys cared and were paying attention to the details.

That doesn't mean their judgment was always perfect; it wasn't. But there was so much they got right, stuff that doesn't stand out from the rest for precisely that reason.

[vison]

Oh, the Balrog was SPLENDID. I forgot about the Balrog. That Balrog made up for so much!!! The stupid troll faded into the mists of unhappy memory as soon as that beautiful Balrog appeared. It was incredible, one of the few really "book true" moments, one of the times when PJ got it perfectly.

But I didn't "like" Gollum and I still don't. It never looked real and since it was onscreen so much it got more and more irritating. I realize that I am almost alone in that opinion, but it is still my opinion.

I thought many of the "big" SFX things were poorly done: the winged beasts the Nazgûl ride, especially the one at Osgiliath. And the Oliphaunts . . . . the less said the better.

The other SFX, such as the ones posted here of Mt. Doom and the Eagle, were good. I guess it was the creatures that pained me, except for the Balrog.