A question on RotK EE

Post by **Alatar** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:02 pm

I was doing a little Christmas shopping and couldn't help glancing at some of the reviews for the LotR Movies. This nugget stood out for me:

As Jackson notes, when cuts are made, the secondary characters are the first to go, so there is a new scene of Aragorn finding the palantír in Denethor's robes.

I always assumed the palantír Aragorn used was Saruman's, but is it possible the above is correct?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:08 pm

I haven't watched the films in quite a while, but I don't remember a scene like that. As I recall, Gandalf brings Saruman's palantír to Minas Tirith, just as in the book, and I don't remember having any reason to think it was not Saruman's stone that Aragorn used.

Post by **ArathornJax** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:36 pm

Interesting . . . as that would mean another major move from the book. In the book the stone is the one from Orthanc, but is PJ saying that Aragorn found the Minis Tirith stone in the robe of Denethor . . . ? Hmm . . . . I like the notion that Prim stated that I always believed he used the Orthanc stone.

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:49 pm

That scene is not found in my EE of ROTK. And this is the very first I have ever heard anything like this.

Post by **Alatar** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:13 pm

SF, the scene is there, we have just always assumed its the Orthanc stone (and personally I still believe thats the case). The argument being made is that it may have actually been the palantír of Minas Tirith he used.

Well, I just checked, and I can see his mistake. It's certainly the Orthanc stone thats used, because its unwrapped from the sackcloth, not "robes". However, its easy to see how the reviewer made the assumption he did. In the scene titled "Aragorn masters the palantír", he approaches the Stewards throne, then unwraps the palantír, which does make it look like he is discovering the palantír there, but as I said, its obviously wrapped in sackcloth.

Still, wouldn't that have been a nice touch...

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:31 pm

Well they all look alike to me

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:48 am

Silly; Denethor kept the Minas Tirith seeing stone well away from any place another person could have found it (remember the scuttlebut about lights in the Steward's tower, when the Lord was supposedly mind-grappling with the enemy?). Unless one assumes that Aragorn snuck around prying into Denethor's private domain - a very ignoble and undignified and uncharacteristic thing to do - it is impossible and a silly inference.

Post by **Holbytla** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:14 am

Denethor having a Palantíri was never fleshed out in the movie at all. I don't remember any inference or reference to it.
I remember him eating cherry tomatoes though.

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:31 am

That is true; I can't recall it from the film - I was referencing the Book

. And yes, the cherry tomato was...

What patent disregard for the original character!

Ahem. Sorry.

Post by **Teremia** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:02 am

Hey, I'm disappointed! I did think that was the Minas Tirith palantír. I see I must have been wrong, but I preferred my incorrect old interpretation.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:03 am

Well, I have been enjoying the actor's performance in the new Fox X-Filesish TV show Fringe very, very much indeed.

A crazy dad again, but charmingly crazy as well as being an insightful scientist. And a less mopey son.

I guess I should go start a thread in the Cottage about that. Maybe next week.

Post by **Alatar** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:18 pm

I agree Teremia, I think anything that suggests Denethor's use of a palantír would be an addition and I could happily live with Aragorn using his, rather than the Orthanc stone if it gave extra depth to Movie Denethor. Without the influence of the unmentioned palantír (apart from that one obscure reference to flickering lights in the tower) he comes across as just a simple nutter.

And Prim, yeah, I really like Noble in Fringe.

Post by **Elentári** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:52 am

Al said:

I think anything that suggests Denethor's use of a palantír would be an addition and I could happily live with Aragorn using his, rather than the Orthanc stone if it gave extra depth to Movie Denethor. Without the influence of the unmentioned palantír (apart from that one obscure reference to flickering lights in the tower) he comes across as just a simple nutter.

I quite agree. Denethor's death scene in RotK was one of the things that made me maddest! By simply keeping to the book for that one scene, and having Denethor jump onto the pyre and reveal that he also had a palantír, would have increased the understanding and the sympathy of the audience. I would love to have heard Gandalf say about the stone being of no further use because it would now only ever show a pair of withered hands.

I guess the reason PJ didn't use this approach is because he felt the audience would be confused by more than one stone.

Post by **kams** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:08 pm

So why not reveal the second palantír and have Gandalf explain "He was swayed to doubt and evil by Sauron, just as Saruman was, because Sauron only revealed dark thoughts through the palantír." .. or some such? He then could say (canon or not) that now all the palantirs were accounted for. That would be enough ties to satisfy the audience, I think.

Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:21 pm

I think that PJ was seduced by his own "inspiration" for the visual of flaming Denethor falling to his death into the battle. It is a great visual, but it doesn't even come close to making up for the illogic of the scene, both in terms of being unrealistic, and in being unfaithful to both the letter and the spirit of Tolkien's work. Definitely a place where Jackson led himself astray.

One of many.