The Approaching Darkness (the "Other" Movie)

[Primula Baggins]

Aragorn and Gandalf also meet and become friends in those years.

I agree that the story of Frodo can't be a compelling one, because as you say he's a blank slate at the start of FotR. But a story could be told that involves him—perhaps of Bilbo's decision to adopt him. That's certainly a change in Bilbo!

[Frelga]

There were some lovely fanfics on TORC regarding that adoption. I think the movie could do far worse than that. Probably will, too.

[Primula Baggins]

Dear me! Cynicism, Frelga?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sounds like a cross of National Geographic and History Channel special. It's all very nice, but whose story is it? Whose struggle, growth, triumph and failures are we supposed to live through?

Exactly! Every movie needs an emotional, human connection, someone to root for and identify with in the story.
It needs a protagonist - or several, like in LotR movies ensemble.
Otherwise it will be cold, and it'll bomb.

To me, Tolkien has always been more about the story - and the themes presented by the story - then the characters. I continue to believe that a compelling and successful film adaptation could be made with that focus. But the filmmakers really would need to think outside the box. From everything that I have seen from del Toro, he has the ability to do that.

[Primula Baggins]

You're right, Voronwë, and LotR itself is evidence of that. But as I said earlier, I need more than that to find the story compelling; I need characters who move me and whose ultimate fate I care about. I'm not alone in that, of course; that kind of character focus is a given in modern popular fiction and in fact in popular entertainment (movies, TV) that presents fiction.

Whether or not PJ's judgment and choices were right in every instance (short answer, even from me: no), his decision to develop the more "epic" characters beyond what we're shown in the book was the right one for the market. In these times and with this mass audience, the films would not have been the success they were if central characters such as Aragorn and Boromir and Faramir were presented as remote and heroic, so that the audience never learned anything about their motivations, only about their roles.

I agree that del Toro could make a wonderful film with the focus you describe. But it would not have a chance of making a billion dollars.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

He can make a billion dollars on The Hobbit, and then make the film he really wants to make with The Approaching Darkness.

[Primula Baggins]

I don't think he has a choice over whether or not to aim for the billion. I would guess that the people putting up the money will be making that call.

[kams]

Still, it seems strange to me that the second film will end hanging. It can't happen that way.

If the "Darkness" movie is just there to set up the three that came before, then it will be a disappointment. (like three other prequels were). I would think del Toro would want to make free-standing movies, each a different take on a myth, or two different myths. Making something to dovetail into FOTR would be a letdown.

[Mrs.Underhill]

To me, Tolkien has always been more about the story - and the themes presented by the story - then the characters. I continue to believe that a compelling and successful film adaptation could be made with that focus. But the filmmakers really would need to think outside the box. From everything that I have seen from del Toro, he has the ability to do that.

Well, I'll give you that: lots of people love "March of the Penguins" without being able to tell one penguin from another. So it *is* possible to do a moving story without a protagonist.

Could GDT pull something like "March of the Dwarves"? Maybe, but the question is: why would he? From what I've seen from his work so far, he is the most interested in exploring archetypes of struggles, failures and triumphs of humanity, of a human character. Which is actually what myths are about, and GDT loves myths. He's most interested in human journey, so I can't see why would he want to do a purely plot driven movie, or theme-driven movie where the themes are not the ones described above.
The man even looks up to Joss Whedon, of all things, and you can't get more human-archetypical than that.

Can you think of any myth, of any epic, without a hero? It will be a documentary then, truly.
Even in "March of the Penguins" we root for penguins as species, we emphasize with their struggles, and that's where emotional connection comes in and makes it more than a documentary.

Yes, it can be more theme-based and plot-based than Hobbit, for example. It can do without a focus on someone's particular story. But still it needs to explore humanity and aim for emotional impact - of some kind.
Now to think of it, Gandalf might make a good protagonist, as a metaphore of a political leader trying to do what's right in the dangerous times, and not always succeeding. Gandalf the Grey makes mistakes and learns from them. He's powerful but also vulnerable. His actions affect fates of many people, he's got this huge responsibility. How does he feel about that? If somebody has to pay the price for the greater good, can Gandalf justify it in his own eyes? Etc. etc.
I'm open to #2 as a political movie.

[Jnyusa]

I'm open to #2 as a political movie.

Me too! G. del Toro has a good handle on the relationship between politics and humanism.

[WampusCat]

Perhaps they will mess with the time line a bit and insert the capture, torture and departure of Elrond's wife, Celebrían. That would give an emotional element to what could otherwise be a political tale.

edit to fix erroneous memory

[Primula Baggins]

And that would be another opportunity to retroactively "fix" a character from the LotR films: Elrond's dourness would be easily understandable. It would also lend (even more) poignance to his love for Arwen.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Wampus, what an intriguing thought. I think that would be an effective thing for them to do. But I doubt they will.

[WampusCat]

I know that when I was reading the appendices, it was one of the stories that most made me wander off into my imagination, adding dialogue and such. Celebrían's violation and despair. Elrond's anger and heartbreak at the separation. Arwen's loss (how would her grief affect her encounter with Aragorn?).

It could help the plot in a number of ways, illuminating the relationships between characters we already know as well as powerfully foreshadowing the rising violence of Sauron and the fading of the elves into the West.