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Voronwë the Faithful
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:41 am 
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I spotted this little tidbit in an article about Philippa Boyens that was mostly about The Lovely Bones:

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Boyens said the biggest challenge facing The Hobbit writers was that the book is episodic, which the two-part film would not be.


I can't imagine how the films could possibly be at all true to the book and not be episodic. What could she possibly mean?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/2819860/Bones-fleshed-out-despite-doubts

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Alatar
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:54 am 
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The only thing I can guess is that they will use more inter-cutting between the White Council storyline and "The Hobbit" proper. Otherwise, it does become "Bilbo and the Trolls", "Bilbo in Rivendell", "Bilbo in the Mountains" etc.

Perhaps the first time Gandalf leaves them (at the Trollshaws) will be an initial branch of this story?

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Elentári
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:35 am 
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That was my thinking also, Al.

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Dave_LF
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She probably just means they will add/remove/play up/play down material in order to ensure the main emphasis of each "episode" is the effect it has on the story as a whole. e.g. maybe the trolls aren't just hanging out in the wild; instead they're on their way to Dol Guldur to join the Necromancer's army, and the encounter is how Gandalf and Elrond discover this sort of thing is taking place (I'm just making this up, but you get the idea).
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Inanna
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:14 pm 
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I like the idea of weaving Hobbit into the larger storyline...

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Voronwë the Faithful
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:26 am 
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Here's what GdT had to say about this at TORN (I posted this there, too):

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What PB says refers mostly to the fact that Thorin & Co repeatedly go:

BANQUET-TRAPPED-FREED (Trolls, Goblins, Spider, Elves)

This is not a criticism but a marked characteristic we have to deal with when structuring the films.

In fact, part of Fairy Tale narrative is to be episodic since- many a time- it is structured around a series of quests that don't seem to escalate as much as accumulate.

In fact, when studying for PANS LABYRINTH, I found out that the "predictable outcome" of these episodes is part of the charm of this particular form of tale. So, don't be afraid, we are truly trying to preserve the charm of it- the whimsy of it-

Anyway- as you know, I cannot divulge much but I can discuss generalities of approach... So...

We need to make sure there are "long lines" emotionally (growth, friendship, etc) amongst Thorin & Co and dramatically (how episodes "build" upon each other ) that will make everything feel more fluid.

That, plus Dol Guldur, which makes the "comings and goings" of Gandalf have their own storyline throughout the two films.

All the Best

G

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Primula Baggins
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:33 am 
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How does this strike you, Voronwë? It sounds good to me.

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Voronwë the Faithful
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:46 am 
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Yeah, it relieves me to a great extent (it almost always does when Guillermo speaks). My concern is that in attempting to tie the story to the broader world of LOTR they will lose that particular fairy tale charm that makes The Hobbit special in its own right. GdT has always seemed like he understands that, and these comments tend to support that.

But the proof will be in the pudding.

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solicitr
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:01 pm 
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I like the idea of weaving Hobbit into the larger storyline...


I hate it. It reeks of fanfic.

But then, if ours were not a fallen world, there would be armed guards preventing Philippa Boyens from approaching within a mile of this project.

Yes, Vor, I'm usually somewhat reassured by GdT's comments, always intelligent and subtle (how unlike PJ!) - but to what extent will he really be in charge? I foresee nothing but script badness (+ mindless CGI eye-candy) coming from this essentially fabricated "larger storyline."
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sauronsfinger
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I like eye candy.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:20 pm 
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solicitr wrote:
Yes, Vor, I'm usually somewhat reassured by GdT's comments, always intelligent and subtle (how unlike PJ!)


I find this so amusing. I recall exactly the same comments being made about PJ after the first "20 Questions" and the Fan Trailer. How he really seemed to "get it".

How short our memories are.

Like PJ, Guillermo will make whatever film he wants to make, subject to interference from the suits and other constraints. And in the meantime, he'll make all the right noises, just like PJ did.

And some people will hate whatever he does.
And some people will love whatever he does.
And the rest of us will most likely enjoy most of it and be pissed off by whatever bit annoyed us personally. (Which will naturally be someone else's favourite part.)

The only difference is that now they'll blame PJ for anything they don't like and assume everything good came from GdT.

In fact I'm sure we'll eventually have to explain to n00bs that, no, GdT wasn't responsible for Arwen at the grave. ;)

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Primula Baggins
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:57 pm 
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I prophesy that everything Alatar prophesies will come to pass. I too remember the reaction to the 20 Questions on AICN.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:08 pm 
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solicitr wrote:
But then, if ours were not a fallen world, there would be armed guards preventing Philippa Boyens from approaching within a mile of this project.


Boyens was responsible for much that was good in the LOTR films. She was responsible for the elements that were most true to the books (though yes she also provided some pretty lame justifications for some of the worst deviations). I am convinced that Jackson himself was responsible for most of the worst excesses in the films, however, and many of them resulted from his directitorial decisions, not from the scripts. I am hoping that when the films are actually filmed GdT's stamp will be put on them.

And I read the 20 questions too, and I didn't find PJ's responses nearly as thoughtful and engaging as GdT's comments over the past year.

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Primula Baggins
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Consider where our expectations were, though. PJ's body of work up until then included only a single film I could bear to watch.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Inanna
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:38 pm 
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solicitr wrote:
Quote:
I like the idea of weaving Hobbit into the larger storyline...


I hate it. It reeks of fanfic.



Incorporating bits of Unfinished Tales into the Hobbit is fanfic?

The one reason I love LOTR is the history, the Legends behind it. When Galadriel says "I will go into the west and remain Galadriel", to get that phrase you have to dig deeper and deeper into the past. This is missing from the Hobbit, and I would like to see it. I didn't mind the changes in PJ's LOTR that brought the legends to the forefront (the Alliance one, for example). But as Alatar said - it's all personal.

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solicitr
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:52 pm 
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I agree with Vor: I found PJ's '20 questions' responses neither perceptive nor subtle, notwithstanding the AICN fanboy drooling. Honestly, folks: reread them and tell me that Michael Bay wouldn't have given pretty much the same answers!

The problem of course with assigning blame for The Hobbit will be that the director and producer will be different people. Whereas with LR PJ retains the undivided guilt for what wound up on screen, whether or not it originated with Boyens or anyone else, with TH we won't know (except by sleuthing) to what extent GdT was or was not dictated to or overruled by his boss.
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solicitr
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Mahima:

It's quite one thing to render to screen a scene written in novelistic detail by Tolkien (and it's striking how much better than the rest of the movies those scenes are which use genuine Tolkien text); and on the other hand to take a laconic Tale of Years entry or terse historical sketch and try to convert it into detailed narrative- at least when those doing the adaptation are singularly tone-deaf with regards to Tolkien's tone, atmosphere, and moral compass. Remember: these are the same folks who brought you the whole inane "Arwen is dying" subplot, kiddie-vision and all, 'based on' Appendix A.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Mahima wrote:
Incorporating bits of Unfinished Tales into the Hobbit is fanfic?


No, incorporating bits of Unfinished Tales into The Hobbit would be illegal. The filmmakers do not have the rights to any material in Unfinished Tales and it would be a copyright violation to incorporate any significant material from The Quest of Erebor or any other part of UT in the films.

The one reason I love LOTR is the history, the Legends behind it. When Galadriel says "I will go into the west and remain Galadriel", to get that phrase you have to dig deeper and deeper into the past. This is missing from the Hobbit, and I would like to see it. [/quote]

But then it would be The Hobbit, would it? That book has its own unique charm, which would be lost if the films just become LOTR-lite.

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Inanna
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Oh, I didn't realize the legal part at all, V, thanks for the clarification. Anything else would be fanfic, as solicitr said, and I don't want that.
:P

Quote:
But then it would be The Hobbit, would it? That book has its own unique charm, which would be lost if the films just become LOTR-lite.


Well, am not in love with The Hobbit, so maybe I wouldn't mind it: :blackeye: (Waits for blasts)

Quote:
It's quite one thing to render to screen a scene written in novelistic detail by Tolkien (and it's striking how much better than the rest of the movies those scenes are which use genuine Tolkien text); and on the other hand to take a laconic Tale of Years entry or terse historical sketch and try to convert it into detailed narrative- at least when those doing the adaptation are singularly tone-deaf with regards to Tolkien's tone, atmosphere, and moral compass. Remember: these are the same folks who brought you the whole inane "Arwen is dying" subplot, kiddie-vision and all, 'based on' Appendix A.


Oh God, I'd blocked that out of my mind. In retrospect, you're right, especially given the legal angle.

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Elentári
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:42 pm 
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But then it would be The Hobbit, would it? That book has its own unique charm, which would be lost if the films just become LOTR-lite.



So we should want The Hobbit to be essentially a children's film? Because it was a book written for children.... ;)

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