If Arwen had been cut from the films

[Anduril]

Some thoughts:

Flight to the Ford

They made Frodo too sick to ride Asfaloth on his own, but if they hadn't, Glorfindel and some others could have encountered Strider and co. in much the same way how Haldir was handled later: only G.'s name is mentioned. However, he would have to get more scenes in TTT and ROTK, even as someone whom Elrond commands.

I believe Haldir is only about as important as Glorfindel in LOTR-proper, as both perform similar helping functions (though Haldir didn't cow several Nazgûl, of course). We could have gone without him too, had PJ kept the scouts nameless. Because PJ and co. planned to kill him later, he got some "face time". Right?

Direct consequences

Aragorn has no love interest. No parallels to Beren and Lúthien. No "drama" regarding the choice between immortality and love. On the other hand, no "Arwen's Fate is Bound to the Ring" subplot, and no girlfriend to taunt Aragorn with in the scene where he uses the palantír.

Éowyn

Éowyn became infatuated with Aragorn as a great captain of men who would lead Rohan to victory. However, Aragorn ultimately rejected her, pointing out that she only loved the idea of Aragorn as a great leader and warrior who would restore Rohan and her lonely life, but not Aragorn himself.

This looks accurate (I hope). My memories of the TTT/ROTK films are more than a little hazy (as with these specific book-details), but I think this wasn't conveyed well, and they emphasized the romance angle. Since Aragorn doesn't already have a love interest, the original point could be kept.

Note: Dec. 23 - changed "as important than Glorfindel" to "as important as Glorfindel".

[Lidless]

Well if the LOTR had been translated as written, Arwen would have turned up in ROTK as just a trophy wife/seamstress.

How much dialogue / face time does she have in books 1-5?

[Athrabeth]

Well if the LOTR had been translated as written, Arwen would have turned uo in ROTK as just a trophy wife/seamstress.

How much dialogue / face time does she have in books 1-5?

Quite right!

Even though Arwen remains off-stage until she comes to Gondor and weds Aragorn, IMO, her presence (almost entirely through the words and actions of Aragorn) is pivotal to his development as a character. I don't have the book handy at the moment, but at least three examples come to mind: just before they leave Rivendell, we are told that Aragorn is sitting with his head bowed to his knees and that only Elrond understands what this moment means to him, in Lórien, on Cerin Amroth, Aragorn speaks of her reverently in Elvish, and when he's speaking to Éowyn at one point, he tells her that if he could follow his heart, then he would be walking in Rivendell.

I love how Tolkien offers the reader these fleeting and cryptic glimpses into Aragorn's heart. These, of course, all start making sense when Elrond's sons present him with the standard that Arwen has made for him. Even after he is crowned, Aragorn laments that his greatest desire has not been achieved. Only when he finds the sapling of the White Tree can he claim his destiny and wed Arwen.

Now, try relaying all THAT in a movie with no Arwen until the coronation scene!

[Sassafras]

Without Arwen the entire dynamic would have changed.

I think her expanded role did actually work quite well for the most part .... although I take strong exception to the silly ALINTTTFOTR subplot (as those who know me well can attest ) One has to keep in mind, I think, that PJ was making a commercial film to appeal primarily to an audience who weren't familiar with the book and it's likely that, he and the studio, felt that filmAragorn's motivation (Arwen) could not be satisfactorily explained without showing some degree of interaction between the two.

If they had faithfully followed the book, we would have had an Aragorn who was driven primarily by duty and who never doubted his rightful course .... and it might not have been necessary to flesh out the character of Arwen. She would appear in Rivendell for a brief few seconds and then again in Minis Tirith. The non-book audience would no doubt have been puzzled because there are no explicit references to her at all .... only suggestions where Aragorn is seen to be heavy-hearted and where her brothers give him the banner at the Paths of the Dead.

Edit: crossposted with Ath

[Primula Baggins]

I just try to ignore ALINTTTFOTR. Otherwise, I think Arwen is mostly an excellent addition to the film. Long before the films I already disliked her sudden appearance at the end of RotK ("Here's yer reward, Aragorn!").

And at least we did not get AAHD.

Glossary

ALINTTTFOTR: Arwen's Life Is Now Tied To The Fate Of The Ring.

AAHD: Arwen At Helm's Deep.

[Holbytla]

If they had faithfully followed the book, we would have had an Aragorn who was driven primarily by duty and who never doubted his rightful course

If only. He did at times doubt his abilities, but was never the reluctant king in the books.
Funny though he counselled Gandalf a couple of times in the movies though. I always found that odd.

[Sassafras]

Funny though he counselled Gandalf a couple of times in the movies though. I always found that odd.

Ah. The diminishing of Gandalf. I take particular exception to that arc in Aragorn's character development.

It's all wrong and completely unnecessary,
my speculation is that in RotK the scriptwriters believed that in order to show Aragorn's (new) acceptance of his role as King (which, if you remember, he did only after Elrond delivered Anduril and tied Arwen's impending death to Sauron's increasing malevolent will and the fate of the Ring) it was somehow important to raise the stature of Aragorn as statesman, leader, all-wise and steadfast king, at the expense of Gandalf.

Pooh.

Absolutely preposterous. Or, what were they thinking? As if Gandalf the maia, could suddenly succumb to fear and doubt.

Having just watched RotK again .... this really bothered me a lot. As does his confrontation with the witch-king.

Really, really bad idea.

[axordil]

Actually, even as Gandalf the White he knew doubt, and even apprehension, if not actual fear. Witness the reaction to Faramir's news of seeing Frodo.

I always avert my eyes when Gandalf's staff blows. Simpler that way. Other than that I like the scene.

[Crucifer]

ALINTTTFOTR: Arwen's Life Is Now Tied To The Fate Of The Ring.

That had me going in the cinema. How was Arwens life tied to the fate of the ring? HOW!? If Sauron gained power, I doubt he'd have stopped at just Middle Earth. Spend a few centuries building a horde of Uruks, spiders, Balrogs etc. and then head west to Valar to get himself some Lebensraum.

What was with the whole Arwen business in TTT!? That could have gone.

The rest was OK though...

[Sassafras]

Actually, even as Gandalf the White he knew doubt, and even apprehension, if not actual fear. Witness the reaction to Faramir's news of seeing Frodo.

True, although I draw a distinction between his fear for Frodo and his conviction during the Last Debate that he has sent Frodo to his death whereupon it is Aragorn who comforts Gandalf by reminding him that there is still hope.

I always avert my eyes when Gandalf's staff blows. Simpler that way. Other than that I like the scene.

The dialogue is mostly true to the book but I also take umbrage at Gandalf sent sprawling onto the ground and unable to rise again.

Just sayin'

Crucifer wrote:,

How was Arwens life tied to the fate of the ring? HOW!? If Sauron gained power, I doubt he'd have stopped at just Middle Earth. Spend a few centuries building a horde of Uruks, spiders, Balrogs etc. and then head west to Valar to get himself some Lebensraum.

Heh. You should have been with us a few years ago in m00bies. We had a wonderful time with this one.

Osgiliath also provided much mirth and entertainment.

[Frelga]

True, although I draw a distinction between his fear for Frodo and his conviction during the Last Debate that he has sent Frodo to his death whereupon it is Aragorn who comforts Gandalf by reminding him that there is still hope.

Yes! Gandalf is the Hope Dude, so what's up with that?

The dialogue is mostly true to the book but I also take umbrage at Gandalf sent sprawling onto the ground and unable to rise again.

And they slandered Shadowfax. In the books he did not scare so easily.

[Athrabeth]

What was with the whole Arwen business in TTT!? That could have gone.

But then we wouldn't have had this image:




Death and Immortality, Tolkien's most fundamental theme, right there before our eyes.

Yeah, I know Jackson ultimately botched the Arwen storyline, but you have give credit when it's due, and this scene deserves a lot of credit.

[yovargas]

That one is worth repeating.

[Holbytla]

My biggest fear before the release of LOTR was Arwen. Turns out her role was the one I had the least trouble with. Well excepting the whole tied into the fate of Middle Earth tripe.
Well I wasn't too fond of Elrond's relationship with her and his threatening lying ways, but that wasn't her fault.

The Arwen Aragorn story had many links and lots of possiblities.
Thankfully they restrained themselves from the Helm's Deep aspect of it and adhered to the underlying themes for the most part.

Though if you freeze your dvd you can still see her in a couple of places during the Helm's Deep battle.



How do you show posession with that? Helm's Deep's?

[Primula Baggins]

"Helm's Deep battle" is fine as it is, Holby.

Trust your feelings!

Turn off your targeting computer!

Ath, that image is so marvelous it arrests me even after all this time and all these viewings. He did get some things right. He did.

[Athrabeth]

Well I wasn't too fond of Elrond's relationship with her and his threatening lying ways, but that wasn't her fault.

I quite like movie Elrond......except for that hoaky line, "You shall be the fellowship of the Ring."

I really don't know why this is so. Maybe it's because he really reminds me of some of the "more human" Elves of the Sil.......especially Thingol.
I know, I know - Book Elrond ISN'T like Thingol. Not a bit. But for me, it was kind of neat to see that connection.

And I actually thought that it was quite refreshing to see an Elf onscreen that wasn't all ethereal and other-worldly and perfect. Anyone who has read the Sil knows that they could get very, VERY cranky.

My biggest fear before the release of LOTR was Arwen. Turns out her role was the one I had the least trouble with.

Same here, Holby. I really think that Jackson and Co. used the Arwen character very successfully to convey some deeply significant themes. But dang it, they botched it at the end of ROTK. Very sloppy of them. Still, for me, the good still outweighs the of ALINTTTFOTR.

Ath, that image is so marvelous it arrests me even after all this time and all these viewings.

Same here, Prim. Same here.

[Sassafras]

Athrabeth wrote:

Maybe it's because he really reminds me of some of the "more human" Elves of the Sil.......especially Thingol.
I know, I know - Book Elrond ISN'T like Thingol. Not a bit. But for me, it was kind of neat to see that connection.

And I actually thought that it was quite refreshing to see an Elf onscreen that wasn't all ethereal and other-worldly and perfect. Anyone who has read the Sil knows that they could get very, VERY cranky.

Hmmm. Elrond > Thingol. Yes, yes, I can see how you might make the connection.FilmElrond does 'emote' a bit more than the latter day Elves who, although luminous, are fading and often seem consumed by the gentle weariness of knowing their days in Middle Earth are ending.

The Sil Elves now, were a passionate lot and not above a bit of subterfuge every now and again. See Eöl. and Maeglin and the sons of Fëanor.

Sorry. Just rambling .....

[Primula Baggins]

I am almost completely ignorant of the Silmarillion, at least by local standards , but I like film Elrond because he brings home, to me, the pain of Arwen's choice: the fact that it hurts more than just her. The fact that even immortal beings love their children and dread being parted from them. If Elrond sees this coming at all, no wonder he's cranky. And yet in the coronation scene, he's able to be happy for his daughter's happiness; his grief is there, but it doesn't shadow everything.

I find the indirect description of his parting from Arwen in the book very moving:

None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

But I find much of that conveyed in the film as well, in Elrond's eyes.

[vison]

I guess I musta seen another ROTK than you guyz, cuz I hated the scene in the movie where Arwen and her daddy showed up. I hated it more than words can say, except I liked it when Aragorn kissed her -- for the first time I thought, Hey, he does love her and it's a flesh and blood love, not all moonlight and faery dust!!! My favourite scene, and where the movie could have ended (but didn't, obviously) was when Aragorn sang. I loved that bit, it seemed like, Wow, someone actually read the book!!!

Arwen in the movie was fine with me, it was Aragorn I didn't like. But that's a whole other thing.

Elrond was fine to look at, but I thought he acted as if Arwen had taken up with a biker boyfriend -- not the man Elrond knew BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE was the future King of Gondor, for pete's sake. Aragorn was his kinsman!!!

As for that nonsense about Arwen leaving Middle Earth? WTF? Arwen would never have done that. Never. Not ever, in other words.

Her fate tied to the ring? WTH did that mean? At first I took it to mean that IF the Ring was not destroyed, she and Aragorn were never going to be more than an item in the National Elfquirer, but then it became clear that something else was meant. But it never became clear what it meant.

Jeez.

I hated that.

It might be fun to watch Bilbo float down in the barrels, eh?

[Primula Baggins]

Yeah, I think you saw another RotK. At least that scene. Because I just love it.

But then you hate it, and we're neither of us idiots, and furthermore we get along just fine.

Boy! Life is complicated!