Favorite/Least favorite non-purists scenes

[yovargas]

(This whole thread got lost in the board glitch. I'm reposting the text file I was lucky enough to save from it. )

yovargas wrote:

Inspired by this:

V-man wrote:
"And Di, the Nazgûl over Osgiliath was the best non-purist moment in all the films."


Off the top of my head:

My pic is probably the same as V-man's. It is awe-inspiring.


On first thought, (this might change) I think my least fav would be the weird Arwen-is-tied-to-the-ring bit. Not only did it not make much sense but, IMO, made for an awful climax to the Arwen/Aragorn story the previous two films had gloriously set up.

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:30 am
Alatar wrote:

First thought? Aragorns cliff-dive.

I actually liked some of the other changes. I know, I should be burned at the stake.

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:32 am
yovargas wrote:

First thought? Aragorns cliff-dive.

As the best or worst?



(:P)

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:43 am
Alatar wrote:

Worst

Best? Probably Elves at helms Deep!

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:51 am
Pearly Di wrote:

Favourite non-purist moment

I have a few.

Difficult to pick at random, but let's go with this one: that moment in TTT when Éowyn is left in charge of the Rohirrim as Théoden and gang ride off to deal with the Orcs and the Warg attack, and Aragorn is riding off, all noble and, um, hot, and she looks after him, longingly ...

Well, I'm sorry, but that man just looks so good on a horse.

And Miranda is so lovely as Éowyn.

And I really love the music here ...

Least favourite non-purist moment:

There are quite a few.

But let's go with this one, which made me shout at my television screen when I watched the ROTK:EE for the first time. This is when Aragorn looks in the palantír and challenges Sauron, "hey, big guy, behold the Sword of Elendil cuz I'm Isildur's heir, hear me roar - oh, and it's a really really BIG sword, look" and I'm like, YES! at last Film Aragorn actually wants to be King, hallelujah and he's really telling that Dark Lord where to get off, yeah yeah yeah, YAY ARAGORN SON OF ARATHORN, HEIR OF ISILDUR, ELESSAR THAT IS TO BE, now we're talking baby, w00t w00t w00t, hippy-ki-yay!!

And then, and THEN .... it's like Sauron says "yeah but don't move or the lady gets it in the neck" and he shows Aragorn in the palantír an image of Arwen dying in Rivendell and Aragorn is like, all, "oh NOES" and does a major wibble because of course the War of the Ring is all about HIM AND ARWEN and he drops the Evenstar and ...

aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhhhhh, I want PJ's head on a stick.

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:53 am
MithLuin wrote:

I think to qualify, the entire scene should be of PJ's invention. So, some of the most cringe-inducing moments in the film (for me, Faramir saying "the Ring will go to Gondor" for instance) can't count, because that line is part of a recognizable scene from Tolkien's book.

I'm not sure it's my least favorite, but I certainly dislike Elrond's attempt to manipulate Arwen into leaving now rather than waiting for the end. His, "do I not have your love?" line is just pure evil.

The Warg attack is one of the few places PJ allows Gimli to show his prowess. For what that's worth.

I think my favorite addition might be Boromir teaching Merry and Pippin to swordfight while Aragorn and Frodo watch.

Another scene I have heard praised in this way ("I know it's heresy, but...") is the moment at the end with the four hobbits in the Inn when they raise their glasses and look like out-of-place returning soldiers. The person who liked this scene said that it captured the entire feel of them being 'apart' in a single look, which was much more poignant than the whole Scouring thing .

Edit: Cross-posted with Di.

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:59 am
Pearly Di wrote:

Oh, YES, the the Elves at Helm's Deep! Awesome. Just awesome.

I loved how PJ gave us, briefly, a feel of The Silmarillion.

Dunno whether he meant to but I still him for that.

MithLuin wrote:
I'm not sure it's my least favorite, but I certainly dislike Elrond's attempt to manipulate Arwen into leaving now rather than waiting for the end. His, "do I not have your love?" line is just pure evil.


Isn't Film Elrond just so UNBELIEVABLY manipulative?! And grumpy as hell. What WAS his problem, really? Missing the wife or summat?

Quote:
I think my favorite addition might be Boromir teaching Merry and Pippin to swordfight while Aragorn and Frodo watch.


Oh, that is so

Quote:
Another scene I have heard praised in this way ("I know it's heresy, but...") is the moment at the end with the four hobbits in the Inn when they raise their glasses and look like out-of-place returning soldiers. The person who liked this scene said that it captured the entire feel of them being 'apart' in a single look, which was much more poignant than the whole Scouring thing .


I totally agree with the person who liked this scene, Mithluin, it is really beautifully done.

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:00 pm
yovargas wrote:

This seems like a good time to look back to one of the more gloriously geeky moments I've been a witness to and some of you might have missed:

Ultimate Best Scene Poll

[Cerin]

I feel better, somehow, knowing that Di shouted at her television.

If only once.

[vison]

I scorched the finish off my TV whilst watching the movies. I have yet to watch the EE of ROTK all the way through.

The best scene in the movies? I guess lighting the beacons. And the first glimpse of Moria.

And the first Black Rider, snuffling for Frodo and the guyz.

[Frelga]

I don't like the beacons. I just... my disbelief won't stay suspended, it's too heavy. By the third beacon I start thinking about the point of heaving a beacon above cloud cover and the logistics of lugging firewood up there, and the poor guys stuck on the bare rock with nothing to do... I just have to close my eyes and listen to the music.

I love Wargses, though. Wargses are so evil.

Like Frodo pushing Sam to dance with Rosy.

REALLY REALLY HATE Frodo sending Sam away.

Hate the pointless second attack on Osgiliath.

Love Boromir teaching the hobbits to fence, although them taking down Boromir AND Aragorn was a bit of an overkill.

Hate easily tricked Ents

Like Merry and Pippin bickering over entdraught

Like Grima being creepy to Éowyn, although that's based on Tolkien's words and so not exactly non-purist (but not in the book)

Hate Gandalf hitting people with staff in Minas Tirith

Like Théoden and Gandalf quiet talk after Theodred's funeral. Like the funeral, too, although Éowyn's hollerin' made me jump first time I saw it. I'm used to it now.

Love the four hobbits back in the Shire

Like Aragorn's St. Crispin's day speech

Really don't like the Corsairs, the skull avalanche and the whole iridescent green un-dead army

Don't like Éowyn's stew. I mean, what could she possibly have done to it, that it was so bad? Really?

I'm sure I'll think of more...

[Impenitent]

When I watched the infamous osgiliation at the cinema the first time, I expressed my indignation out loud. When Sam said, "By rights, we shouldn't even be here," I yelled back (quite loudly! thankfully, I was sitting on my own and therefore no friend or acquaintance witnessed it), "Too bloody right!". I felt eyes stabbing me in the dark, but I was fuming and I stared them down. (Of course, it helped that it was dark )

Thing is, apart from the fact that no, they should not bloody well have been there!, the scene between Frodo and Sam is very delicately played out. It is moving and renders Tolkien's intent well.

But still.

What I liked:

Lighting the beacons. The valley of Rivendell and Elrond's house. Bag End. Moria (what an extraordinary rendering!) - the whole Moria episode except the cochroaches. The cockroaches ruined my suspension of disbelief.

The approach to Edoras - that brought me to tears, it was so exquisitely beautiful, with Éowyn locked into such desperation. Edoras was pretty well perfect except for the exorcism - that was another bit which was altogether too silly for me to remain immersed - and it made me so angry, too, because the introduction to Rohan had been so perfect that I had so hoped beyond hope that PJ would behave but no, he ruined the moment.

And, while I disliked the misrepresentation of Elrond attempting to bully Arwen into leaving, the scene in which he so evocatively presents for us the future Arwen chooses is magnificent - the final desolation at the end, so beautiful in blue light.

I loved Boromir's speech at Osgiliath; it brought to life an event that occurred off-screen, and while PJ's Denethor was a hideous caricature, the living, warm, loving relationship between the two brothers as PJ created it was very satisfying.

I'm sure there are other bits but it's been a very long while since I've seen the films so I can't recall them immediately to mind.

It's interesting though, that just where he got something so completely right was precisely also where he put his foot in it. PJ I mean.

[Jnyusa]

Frelga and I were separated at birth.

(I was bashed so badly on TORC for disliking the beacons ... though it wasn't because of getting the firewood up the mountains .... )

[Impenitent]

Ooh, Frelga brought some well-buried recollections to the surface for me!

Hated Gandalf wacking people with his staff at Minas Tirith.

Hated Denethor dribbling food and leaping off the walls in flame.

Hated Aragorns cliff dive - and also Brego the wonder horse. I mean...come on!

Éowyn's stew annoyed me too.

And the many, many dwarf jokes annoyed me very, very much, especially dwarf-tossing.

Ents being tricked. *shakes head* In fact, ents represented as stupid just got my goat.

Éowyn and Grima scene was excellent, though, wasn't it?

I did not like, at all, at ALL, Éomer leading his outlaw band down a shale cliff face.

[Pearly Di]

I feel better, somehow, knowing that Di shouted at her television. If only once.

:D:D:D:D

Um, why?

When I watched the infamous osgiliation at the cinema the first time, I expressed my indignation out loud. When Sam said, "By rights, we shouldn't even be here," I yelled back (quite loudly! thankfully, I was sitting on my own and therefore no friend or acquaintance witnessed it), "Too bloody right!". I felt eyes stabbing me in the dark, but I was fuming and I stared them down. (Of course, it helped that it was dark )

Impy, you weren't the only one who said "too bloody right!" I know quite a few people who said that.

Not during the actual cinema screening though.

This is a great thread, I'm glad it got rescued.

[Alatar]

Why are there more people focussing on the negatives than the positives I wonder? Is it because people take for granted when he got it so right?

I teared up in the cinema as Gandalfs cart topped the hill and we saw Hobbiton in all its glory. It was just so... "right".

Gandalfs ride through the seven levels of Minas Tirith was just so breathtakingly awesome (and I mean that in the true sense of the word).

The Beacons. No offense intended, but I really do feel sorry for anyone who didn't feel the emotion I felt watching that scene. I wish you could have felt how I did, cause I can't describe it. I saw most of it through my tears.

So, even though I think with a little restraint PJ could have created even better movies, I'll forgive him that because what he made was still so much better than we had any right to expect.

[Pearly Di]

Yep, the first viewing of the Beacons scene was simply incredible. I had the BIGGEST smile on my face, because it was just so ... so ...

(Just don't ask yourself how the dickens any Númenórean can scoot up there to 12,000 feet. Just don't. )

Oddly enough, I didn't tear up. The tears came when the Rohirrim arrive on Pelennor ... and that scene will always make me tear up.

OK, time for another favourite non-purist scene ... the final one!

Strictly speaking, I don't see this as a non-purist scene at all. The non-purist elements are purely aesthetic. Sam walks slowly up the lane to the yellow door of Bagshot Row, not the green door of Bag End. Elanor is about five years old, not a baby. We see her baby brother, who is obviously Frodo Gamgee.

So the timeline is wrong, but ... that really isn't the point, is it?

The whole scene makes me dissolve in tears ... it's just so perfect. Especially with that voice-over from Frodo.

"Well, I'm back."

[yovargas]

Awesome. Love the replies, everyone.
Though I find it interesting that a lot of these responses aren't things I'd really find "non-purist" (eg. the beacons). But by a lose definition, practically everything is non-purist. I mean, they didn't have background music in the First Age!!

[Sunsilver]

Why are there more people focussing on the negatives than the positives I wonder? Is it because people take for granted when he got it so right?

I teared up in the cinema as Gandalfs cart topped the hill and we saw Hobbiton in all its glory. It was just so... "right".

So, even though I think with a little restraint PJ could have created even better movies, I'll forgive him that because what he made was still so much better than we had any right to expect.

YES! YES! YES!! It was an Alan Lee painting come to life on the screen!! And, PJ including the Road song! I was SO happy to hear that! (YEAH! He's acknowledging how important Tolkien's poetry is!) But what REALLY captured my heart, and dispelled all doubt about Ian's acting ability, was the "A wizard is never late" line, then Gandalf struggling (and failing) to keep a straight face after delivering it! How I still love that scene! PJ, you got it SPOT ON! What a wonderful moment, which says so much about the relationship between Gandalf and Frodo!

The first film (you can correct me if you think differently) deviates the least from the book. I alreadly knew, as we all did, about Arwen at the ford, so were prepared for that, and it didn't jar half as bad as some of the other stuff in the later films. It's like PJ decided, "Good, they liked the film. Now I can get away with experimenting a bit on my own!"

[Crucifer]

I loved the beacons.

I loved the line in FOTR: Pippin: What about breakfast?
Aragorn: We've had it already.
P: Ye, but what about second breakfast?
Merry: I don't think they have those.
P: What? What about elevenses? Afternoon tea? They have those, don't they? MERRY!?
*apple falls on head*

It's the only real reference to how a hobbit really thinks with his stomach.

The Gandalf arriving in the Shire bit gets me every time.

And I love the contrast between Isengard when Gandalf visits and when Sarumans treachery is discovered.

[yovargas]

Wait...are we calling Gandalf's arrival scene non-purist???

[Sunsilver]

Heavens! Definitely not! I just had to chime in there to agree with Alatar!

Hmmm....non-purist scenes...well, like I said earlier, both Gollum and Frodo falling over the edge at the Cracks of Doom set up a much more dramatic ending than Tolkien's version.

And the Witch King taking flight from Minas Morgul on his Fell Beast was 100x more dramatic than Tolkien's version, where he merely RIDES out on a horse.

Hmmm....need to watch the films again...I guess the arrival of the Elves at Helm's Deep was pretty darn good, but I hated Gandalf charging down an impossible slope, and plunging into an (obviously) CGI animated army! Arrrggg!! Indeed one of P.J.'s less forgivable excesses, and quite unnecessary!

[vison]

I thought Frodo and Gollum both falling over the edge was awful. Typical PJ overkill. But we all see things differently, obviously.

I didn't like Gollum, anyway. I don't mean the character, I mean the way it was done in the movie. I guess I am wrong, so I will admit that at once!, but I think an actor could have done it perfectly well.

An awful lot of the CGI stuff looks phonier than it should. Some of it is done very well, though.

[Cerin]

Um, why?

I suppose because it makes me feel that there is not such a chasm as there seems, at times, between those who experienced the movies primarily positively and those who experienced them primarily negatively. Someone who was moved to shout at the TV or movie screen even once, understands the nature of my frustration, if not the degree.

[Pearly Di]

I guess I am wrong, so I will admit that at once!, but I think an actor could have done it perfectly well.

Well ... I'm all for Andy Serkis being recognised as being a proper actor in this. He did amazing work.

I don't think an actor, sans CGI, could have conveyed just how emaciated and skeleton-like Gollum is, Vison. Gollum needs to look rather alien and weird. Because he is.

Michael Thierrault, who plays Gollum in the LOTR musical, is absolutely fantastic and his makeup is incredible. But the look works because the actor is very often in the shadows, due to the clever use of lighting on the stage ... sort of 'smoke and mirrors' effect, I suppose. You would still need some CGI effects, otherwise the guy playing Gollum would just look like a guy in a funny mask and body suit. And we wouldn't want a Gollum who looked like Darth Maul, would we?

I suppose because it makes me feel that there is not such a chasm as there seems, at times, between those who experienced the movies primarily positively and those who experienced them primarily negatively. Someone who was moved to shout at the TV or movie screen even once, understands the nature of my frustration, if not the degree.

Oh, I see.

[yovargas]

I thought Frodo and Gollum both falling over the edge was awful. Typical PJ overkill.

If that's typical PJ overkill, I'll take it over typical Tolkien deus ex machinas.

I hated Gandalf charging down an impossible slope, and plunging into an (obviously) CGI animated army! Arrrggg!! Indeed one of P.J.'s less forgivable excesses, and quite unnecessary!

It makes me sad that apparently lots of people don't like that scene. It might be my favorite non-Mt. Doom scene.


I'm gonna add the moth as an awesome non-purist invention.

[Pearly Di]

If that's typical PJ overkill, I'll take it over typical Tolkien deus ex machinas.

Well, PJ didn't baulk at including the Tolkien deus ex machinas.

*pauses to swoon mightily for the Eagles rescue scene*

Actually, there is no deus ex machina at the Cracks of Doom, in the book. Gollum slips and loses his footing as he prances about on the edge.

I have to say I understand people's irritation at the impossibly steep slope. Every bit as bad as a deus ex machina.

I'm gonna add the moth as an awesome non-purist invention.

Yes, I like the moth. (And I love how the camera nosedives down the Tower of Orthanc, down to the bowels of Saruman's factory ... love it!!!!!)