Favorite/Least favorite non-purists scenes

[Primula Baggins]

After Helm's Deep. Gimli's sitting on a dead orc, Legolas appears and they compare their final dead-orc counts. Legolas suddenly shoots the orc Gimli's sitting on and adds one to his count, saying it moved. Gimli says that was only because his axe was embedded in its "neural tissue" or some such dreadful anachronism.

At least, unlike the skull avalanche, it's over quickly.

[yovargas]

Nervous system NOT "neural tissue". Yeesh!




(Confession: It's one of the tiny number of Gimli jokes that made me laugh.)


I'm pretty sure my vote for least-fav non-purist moment now goes to the ghost blowing scene. That's the only scene I find painful. (Aragorn throwing that torch comes close.)

[Primula Baggins]

Sorry, yov—I haven't watched them in at least six months, and I didn't pay much attention to that scene.

Do you mean Aragorn throwing the torch at Weathertop? That was cheesy, but you know, I think that whole scene (much criticized) is one where PJ was trapped by the book-to-film transformation. In the book, we're in Frodo's point of view, which is very convenient because all Frodo sees of Aragorn's battle with the Nazgûl is a vague, woozy impression of him suddenly appearing with torches. Then Frodo passes out. Unfortunately, the film audience can't pass out with Frodo, and so PJ had to put something up there showing how Aragorn somehow overcame these terrifyingly powerful beings who completely outnumbered him.

I have a darn good idea why Tolkien used Frodo's POV in that one. It's better than "With a single bound he was free!" but is still an authorial cheat of sorts.

[yovargas]

Do you mean Aragorn throwing the torch at Weathertop?

That was cheesy, but you know, I think that whole scene (much criticized) is one where PJ was trapped by the book-to-film transformation. In the book, we're in Frodo's point of view, which is very convenient because all Frodo sees of Aragorn's battle with the Nazgûl is a vague, woozy impression of him suddenly appearing with torches. Then Frodo passes out. Unfortunately, the film audience can't pass out with Frodo, and so PJ had to put something up there showing how Aragorn somehow overcame these terrifyingly powerful beings who completely outnumbered him.

Absolutely. (Though he still didn't need to throw the torch and have it stick! That's what really bugs me.)

I feel the exact same way about the Army of the Dead. You can tell that PJ hated having to do that but, really, how was he supposed to plausibly and non-cheaply visualize the defeat of the entire army of Mordor in the end?

[solicitr]

Unfortunately, the film audience can't pass out with Frodo, and so PJ had to put something up there showing how Aragorn somehow overcame these terrifyingly powerful beings who completely outnumbered him.

Except that in the book there's no fight at all. Tolkien is quite explicit about this in his famous shredding of the Zimmerman script- in fact he expressly denounce's Z's version as "another scene of meaningless screams and slashings." If only PJ had paid attention! (And Phillppa Boyens owns a copy of Letters, so there's no pleading ignorance). Aragorn didn't overcome them: they left. Frodo stabbed- now comes Miller time.

[Primula Baggins]

Wow. That makes no sense at all.

Imagine what that would have done to the "menace" of the Nazgûl, if PJ had filmed it that way.

Aragorn: Boo!

Nazgûl: Chill, dude, we're out of here. <exeunt>

Not that the way he did it is perfect, either, but. . . .

[Frelga]

Well, they could have had Glorfindel (or, OK, Arwen) show up and scare the Nazgûl away. With some half-donkey explanation that there needs to be nine of them.

Ah yes, that reminded me of my LEAST favorite invention in FOTR - knife-wielding Arwen. I don't grudge her the rescue but "Ranger caught unawares" really makes me groan.

But yeah, the Nazgûl are rather inept in the book.

[Sunsilver]

The whole POINT of the scene at Weathertop was they stabbed Frodo with a morgul knife. Now they could afford to lie low and wait for him to be overcome by the tip of the blade left in the wound. Remember the scene at Rivendell? "You had already started to fade." or some such dialogue.

And the torch stuck on the Nazgûl because the easiest way to make a torch in the Great Outdoors is to find some pine pitch! Ever tried to get THAT out of your hair??

The scene makes perfect sense to me. Except for Aragorn having to fight them, and winning. Now THAT stretched my credulity. But it's too dreadfully common a movie cliche for me to lose any sleep over.

[solicitr]

Please remember, the 8 Associate Nazgûl are not warriors. Thir principal wepon is *fear* (and any military scientist willtell you that demoralizing the enemy is the most potent weapon of all). JRRT tells us "they had no great power against the fearless." Aragorn points out that on Weathertop they didn't expect to be resisted at all. Apparently the Nazguls' favorite time-off recreation is spotlighting deer.....

Now, picture the movie scene this way:

A scene of gloom lit by a small red fire., with the Wraiths slowly approaching as darker shadows - until the moment when Frodo puts on the Ring, and the King steps forward revealed...

That's the scene as envisioned by JRRT (Letter no. 210) "The Black Riders do not scream, but keep a more terrifying silence...There is no fight...[my way] would seem to me far more impressive than yet another scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings."

[Primula Baggins]

I guess I'm examining it from the point of view of plot logic. Frodo was carrying something they desperately wanted. They render him completely helpless and then . . . go away. To wait until another chance that may or may not come, when he might possibly be . . . just as helpless as he was right then, right in front of them, Ring around his neck, clearly visible. . . .

It's like muggers knocking you out and then running away without robbing you, trusting that they've given you a bum knee that means they'll be able to catch up with you next time and . . . rob you.

Maybe that's what Tolkien intended, but I think it doesn't make sense from a story standpoint. The Nazgûl would have looked weak in the book if it had been clearly spelled out as happening that way. And just as weak in the movie.

If I had to guess, I would guess that Tolkien couldn't come up with a good and logical way for Frodo to be saved from the Nazgûl, by Aragorn or anyone—and so rather than describe something that really isn't believable (as PJ had to, in a visual medium), he fudged.


Edit: For overstatement

[yovargas]

Exactly. It's absurd that they wouldn't just take the ring from him right there. Stab him in the heart and take the ring. They very obviously do not because that ends the story right there. At least PJ had a better reason than that.

I would guess that Tolkien couldn't come up with a good and logical way for Frodo to be saved from the Nazgûl, by Aragorn or anyone—and so rather than describe something that really isn't believable (as PJ had to, in a visual medium), he fudged.

Tolkien couldn't come up with a good and logical way for lots of stuff to happen.

[Inanna]

Then why have the Nazgûl getting as close to Frodo at all on Weathertop?

[Primula Baggins]

Oh, that scene did an awful lot of work for Tolkien. It wounded Frodo, which overshadowed the rest of the book. It established the Nazgûl as creepy and frightening. It played up the vulnerability of the hobbits and Strider, more or less alone in a bleak and empty wilderness, with cryptic signs of Gandalf but no sign that he was near enough to help.

Stories aren't completely about logic. I think the answer to Weathertop is that it wasn't about logic at all. Tolkien, being a master storyteller whose pipe and slippers I will never be worthy to carry, knew that the other things that sequence would do for the story were much more important than having everything be plausible and neatly tied up.

And of course it works; I love that scene in the book. It just doesn't bear close examination, that's all.

[Pearly Di]

Great post, Prim. You are so, so right about this scene, in every respect.

Now, picture the movie scene this way:

A scene of gloom lit by a small red fire., with the Wraiths slowly approaching as darker shadows - until the moment when Frodo puts on the Ring, and the King steps forward revealed...

That's the scene as envisioned by JRRT (Letter no. 210) "The Black Riders do not scream, but keep a more terrifying silence...There is no fight...[my way] would seem to me far more impressive than yet another scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings."

I agree that would have totally rocked. In fact, that is just the Weathertop scene I wanted: the Nazgûl approaching in deadly, horrible, terrifying silence, and then you hear them hiss in the dark silence ... so I was disappointed with PJ's. His Nazgûl were far too noisy and shrieked too much. (Shuddup you lot! You're giving me a headache. )

I found the Dementors a lot more scary and effective on film. Of course, they're Nazgûl rip-offs anyway.

Best part of PJ's Weathertop: when Chief Honcho, aka Witchking of Angmar, stabs Frodo. Lordy, that looked painful. Good Frodo-angst moment.

Cuz I'm all about the Frodo angst.

[yovargas]

IAWP.



I'm not trying to say PJ did great here (I hate the burning! ). What I'm saying is that the "Just stick to the books" isn't always the answer. In this case, sticking to the book would've been worse because Tolkien's answer makes the plot look stupid and contrived, a much bigger problem then making the Nazgûl look stupid.

[Pearly Di]

IAWP????

LOL I know, and OTOH I know, and IIRC, but ... IAWP, no.

[yovargas]

I Agree With Prim.
Surprising handy, that.

[axordil]

It is worth bearing in mind that an author may have a quite effective visualization in their mind of how a scene works that is nonetheless fundamentally unworkable on the screen. That is, you could reproduce it with precision, but the transition would nevertheless fail to work for others as it worked for the author.

I suspect that's the case with JRRT's idea of how the scene would look. Plays great in the theater of the mind, sounds great describing it, falls flat in practice.

And actually, I don't believe the Nazgûl scream or screech or whatever it is they do at all in that scene. I will have to go review it now.

[yovargas]

Oh, no, Ax. I saw it this week - the scream constantly.
I don't mind those screams much, really.
The burning flailing bugs me but I can bear it.
But that torch!!

[Alatar]

It is worth bearing in mind that an author may have a quite effective visualization in their mind of how a scene works that is nonetheless fundamentally unworkable on the screen. That is, you could reproduce it with precision, but the transition would nevertheless fail to work for others as it worked for the author.

I have to say, I feel a bit the same way about Gollum falling in at the cracks of doom. I can't imagine any way of doing that where the audience wouldn't burst out laughing.