Favorite/Least favorite non-purists scenes

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

I think that Weathertop is narratively a little unsound and I think that is why the Prof went back later to explain it. I suspect it would have benefitted from a tiny bit of tweaking. Even as written though it is pretty scary.
I tried to deal with the action in this way:

Cut to two black-robed figures standing motionless at the edge of the dell. They glide smoothly, ghost-like and slowly towards the camera. Cut to a view of the dell. Strider takes two torches and advances towards the black figures. They circle around him avoiding his attacks and draw him away. Three more figures, one of them much taller, appear at another point on the edge and move swiftly towards the hobbits. Two halt to stand guard against Strider while the tall one continues. Cut to the hobbits staring. Pippin screams, throws down his torch and hides his face against Merry who protectively covers him and then turns his face in fear too. Sam closes up to Frodo. Cut to Frodo alone, his face is agonising. He pulls out the Ring and puts it on and vanishes. Cut to a tall crowned figure clad in grey armour walking to the camera. His face is gaunt and blank and almost transparent. His eyes are large, unnatural and unsettling and staring. He is illuminated in a sickly greenish white light. In his hand is a long thin slightly curved knife. Cut to a view of the Witch-King approaching Frodo. Frodo is bright and glowing golden. The Ring pulses with light on his hand. All his friends appear as dim dark shadows. The fire burns with an intense redness. We are seeing the scene in the Spirit world. Frodo draws his sword against the advancing figure and the blade flickers blue.
Cut to a view from behind Frodo as the Witch-King advances.
Frodo: 'O Elbereth Gilthoniel!' He slashes wildly and vainly at the legs of the Witch-King then huddles in fear on the ground. The Witch-King bends over him and sticks the knife in Frodo's shoulder. A thin high-pitched girlish shriek of pain is heard. The Witch-King bends the knife to one side to snap off the tip and then tosses the blade aside.
Witch-King: 'Come to me!' He turns and moves swiftly away and Frodo vanishes.
Cut to a normal view of the dell. Sam is bending over Frodo. Merry and Pippin huddle together. Strider runs back towards them. The tall black-garbed figure of the Witch-King pauses for a moment to watch him approach then swiftly moves away. Strider plunges his torches into the pile of brushwood which flares up into an immense blaze. He runs off over the edge.

I had set up the intentions of the WiKi earlier by some hammy dialogue where he intended to enslave the hobbit with a Morgul knife.

[Primula Baggins]

That's a decent solution, Tosh.

It's always dramatic to put a helpless hero in danger, but if the danger is too great, often it doesn't make sense. Yet it happens all the time—see any James Bond movie, for example, where the villain who hates Bond captures him . . . and then doesn't simply have one of his henchmen shoot Bond in the head, as a real villain would, to put an end to the problem forever. Because then there would be no movie.

[yovargas]

ps - after some thought, I think I'm picking the moth as my favorite invention. In part because it resolves another of Tolkien slightly-cheap cop-out in a better fashion than the book.
Plus Gandalf's look upon seeing the moth at Mordor is priceless.

[axordil]

A certain amount of sadism is a handy plot device for any villain.

yovargas--

You're no doubt correct, but now I have to watch it to figure out why I don't remember that.

[Primula Baggins]

A certain amount of sadism is a handy plot device for any villain.

I'll make a note of that, Ax.

[yovargas]

[solicitr]

Look at it this way- the Ringwraiths are *ghosts*. You know, spooks. "Boo! Scared ya, didn't I?" Their role is far more like assassins than ninja warriors.* From the text it appears that aside from the W-K, they couldn't even touch Frodo unless he was partly in their world- which would only happen if (a) he put on the Ring, or (b) through the workings of the Morgul-knife. Frodo goofed by putting the thing on (under their influence) but, fortunately, he had the presence of mind to yell "Elbereth!"** and then take the thing off. At that point, the Nazgûl could do nothing further but wait.

PJ blew it big-time by including that gratuitous hobbit-head-lopping, and equipping them with steel gauntlets and sollerets and swords, and (mistakenly) having the RW attack the Prancing Pony. He's established them as solid, physical fighters- undead Green Berets - rather than spectres of fear and terror. And so film-Aragorn goes after them with a sword, and shows them up to be rather clumsy Darth Vader wannabes instead of soul-crushing phantoms.

* Compare the Dead Men of Dunharrow- apparently (although Gimli expresses uncertainty) their weapons 'no longer bite'- fear is all they need.

** Middle-earth reality- show Dracula that crucifix!

[Frelga]

Look at it this way- the Ringwraiths are *ghosts*. You know, spooks. "Boo! Scared ya, didn't I?" Their role is far more like assassins than ninja warriors.* From the text it appears that aside from the W-K, they couldn't even touch Frodo unless he was partly in their world- which would only happen if (a) he put on the Ring, or (b) through the workings of the Morgul-knife. Frodo goofed by putting the thing on (under their influence) but, fortunately, he had the presence of mind to yell "Elbereth!"** and then take the thing off. At that point, the Nazgûl could do nothing further but wait.

I was going to applaud you for the brilliant explanation. Except... what about WiKi vs. Éowyn? He does break her shield and her arm. Is WiKi special? Or did he gain more strength and solidity by then, which seems to be the implication in the books.

Apart from that point, I agree. In FOTR at least, Ringwraiths are basically empty cloaks on horsies, and I don't recall any of them but WiKi ever physically attacking anyone.

[yovargas]

I was going to applaud you for the brilliant explanation.

And it still doesn't explain why they stab him the shoulder and leave.

[Frelga]

What should they do? Drag him away? Pull the Ring off? Maybe they are not solid enough, they have power over him in the shadowy realm, but not in the living world. They can't even see him, once he took the Ring off. So they need to terrify him into surrendering the Ring, make him compliant to their will, and the bit of knife will accomplish that. This is collaborated by their telling Frodo to "come to them" at the Ford.

PJ seemed to have picked up on that, or else why did the Giant Hummingbird of Osgiliath just hang there waiting for Frodo to put on the Ring? It seemed very proficient at snatching men off the walls in Minas Tirith.

[Crucifer]

Don't they leave because they can't stand to hear Elvish? Hearing Elbereth a Githoniel or whatever drives them away. (Like the knights who until recently said Ni and the word 'it')

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

a) The Witch King stabs him with an enchanted knife (he was a sorcerer) to bring Frodo into their own spirit world where he will be subservient to them.
b) Tolkien in one of his letters says that by the time of the Pellenor Sauron has lent the Witch King some of his own demonic power; perhaps the same power that enabled Sauron to take bodily form after the drowning of Westernesse and his downthrow by Elendil.

[Alatar]

Its a stretch isn't it? I'm glad its left vague in the book.

[axordil]

PJ seemed to have picked up on that, or else why did the Giant Hummingbird of Osgiliath just hang there waiting for Frodo to put on the Ring? It seemed very proficient at snatching men off the walls in Minas Tirith.

Their mounts were always half their senses, as it were. But this discussion does touch on some of the basic questions about the ringwraiths: what is the nature of the wraith/shadow world and those in it? How much can they affect the material world, and why does that ability seem so uneven?

There are answers for some of it, but I think Prim is really on the right track when she points out that real world logic and literary logic are not one and the same. The powers of the Nine are what they need to be for the story to go where it goes.

[Cerin]

I think I'm picking the moth as my favorite invention. In part because it resolves another of Tolkien slightly-cheap cop-out in a better fashion than the book.

Are you referring to the encounter with Radagast as a cheap cop out? What part of it do you find cheap? That Gandalf happened to encounter him? I agree that it was more expedient for film to have the moth, but I see nothing inherently less cheap about the moth than about an encounter with another of the wizardly order.

Or did he gain more strength and solidity by then, which seems to be the implication in the books.

Yes, I believe the book does explain at some point that they are at their weakest, farthest from Sauron and Mordor, and that as his strength waxes, theirs does as well. Wasn't there something about Wiki being at his apex at the gate -- his moment come 'round, as it were?

And it still doesn't explain why they stab him the shoulder and leave.

It actually does. I believe it's in Gandalf's review of events for Frodo at Rivendell. Their plan was to stab Frodo so that the morgul blade could do it's work. It wasn't an accident, you know, that a bit of it broke off. So in summary, they stab him in the shoulder and leave because that is their plan. That is their plan, because that is the way he can be made compliant. Why must he be made compliant rather than simply killed and the Ring taken? Perhaps because being subject to Sauron and to the One Ring through their lesser Rings, none of the Nazgûl may take possession of the One.


Crucifer, there's no doubt that hearing the name of Elbereth was painful to the Nazgûl, but it seems apparent to me that they would have retreated regardless, once they'd accomplished their aim of stabbing Frodo.

[solicitr]

Except... what about WiKi vs. Éowyn? He does break her shield and her arm. Is WiKi special? Or did he gain more strength and solidity by then

In a word, yes. "The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force."

Don't they leave because they can't stand to hear Elvish? Hearing Elbereth a Githoniel or whatever drives them away.

The name or invocation of Elbereth (Varda) in particular appears to intimidate them, as Aragorn says at the time; cf. also the Watchers of Cirith Ungol. It also appears that Elves generally do not fear the shades of Men; and Noldor or at least Exiled Noldor have great power over them. JRRT elsewhere explains that the BR in the Woody End drew off both because of the hymn to Elbereth, and also because the presence of so many High Elves 'blinded' his sense of the Ring. Certainly Glorfindel scares them sh*tless!

In general they don't like Light (shades of Gollum). Their power is greater in darkness; both the Rangers at Sarn Ford and Gandalf on Weathertop are driven off once night falls. Tolkien follows the point about the W-K above by mentioning that when he confronted Éowyn "the Darkness was only just breaking." Varda is the Vala of Light, and they don't much like fire.

[axordil]

Perhaps because being subject to Sauron and to the One Ring through their lesser Rings, none of the Nazgûl may take possession of the One.

That's something I have wondered about. JRRT notes somewhere (I forget the context) that if Frodo had successfully disposed of Gollum in the Sammath Naur, and the Nazgûl had found him there, they would not have--could not have--attempted to take him and the Ring by force. But that's at the location where the Ring had as much power as it could possibly have. Elsewhere in Middle-earth, the "rules" would likely be different. But how different?

The scene is really a good example of the problem with explicating an less than obvious agenda on film. On film, as opposed to in a text, the reason for the WK's actions can only really be explained after the fact. However, they have to make at least SOME sense at the time they're viewed for the uninitiated.

[Frelga]

That's something I have wondered about. JRRT notes somewhere (I forget the context) that if Frodo had successfully disposed of Gollum in the Sammath Naur, and the Nazgûl had found him there, they would not have--could not have--attempted to take him and the Ring by force. But that's at the location where the Ring had as much power as it could possibly have. Elsewhere in Middle-earth, the "rules" would likely be different. But how different?

I am not sure how much geography matters. I think the same source (which I can't remember either) says that if Frodo had mastered the Ring, the Nazgûl would have to do his will although he would soon be tricked.

Still, I bet Sauron would have preferred the Ring to be carried by a hobbit zombie than by an already powerful Ringwraith. Which is probably why they need to take Frodo to Mordor.

The scene is really a good example of the problem with explicating an less than obvious agenda on film. On film, as opposed to in a text, the reason for the WK's actions can only really be explained after the fact. However, they have to make at least SOME sense at the time they're viewed for the uninitiated.

Good point. However, as solicitr pointed out, if the Ringwraith had been established as spectral beings rather than the inept thugs, in Shire and Bree, the scene at Weathertop could have been filmed closer to the book and made sense.

P.S.: can you imagine how many times this thread would have been split had Voronwë been around?

[axordil]

Well, though, they ARE inept thugs, as well as spectral beings, as well as ominous shapeless threats, as well as warriors...it varies in response to the need of the scene at hand. Whatever is most threatening at that juncture of the story, most fear-inducing, that's what the ringwraiths do.

In this respect, the WK is in fact the Stay-puft Marshamallow Man.

[yovargas]

Last night, I was talking to a friend. She said she saw FOTR, enjoyed it, so decided to read the book. Though she felt none of the grand passion most here tend to feel, she really enjoyed the book. Afterwards, she saw TTT and ROTK, commenting that she liked each one better than the last (she also said, as I've said elsewhere, that FOTR has a certain choppy, episodic feel to it). Why do I bring this up? Well, as a non-hardcore fan, I was very interested in her perspective: she said she was fine with all the changes they made except one. To paraphrase her: "WTF did they do to Faramir!??? "