2012 Olympics (spoilers for tape-delayed events)

[yovargas]

But some of them might not mind a return to the classic all-natural look for the Olympics............

[Primula Baggins]

Yeah, but they'd probably go back to dealing out the death penalty to any woman who got into the stadium to watch.

[nerdanel]

Wow, Usain Bolt isn't scoring high in the modesty division - and, like Ryan Lochte, is giving me a whole new appreciation for Michael Phelps's general lack of obnoxiousness. After winning the 200M, Bolt's insight was: "I'm now a legend. I'm also the greatest athlete to live."

Those sentences might rank first in my newly-established catalog of Things That Should Never Come Out of Anyone's Mouth to Describe Themselves, Ever.

[halplm]

Never seen why he's so popular. He seems like a total jerk. Most of the athletes have been very gracious after they win.

[vison]

He's not supposed to be nice. He's supposed to run fast.

[yovargas]

One can do both.

[nerdanel]

He's not supposed to be nice. He's supposed to run fast.

Actually, sportsmanship is generally expected of Olympic athletes, which includes both winning and losing with grace and class. Sure, that's not a generally enforced expectation, but most athletes honor it such that it becomes pretty glaring when someone exhibits classless immodesty.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't have any problem with Bolt making those comments. Sports are largely entertainment, and he is very entertaining.

This is completely subjective, of course, but not being either a runner or a swimmer I find Bolt's accomplishments more impressive and awe-inspiring than Phelps' (not to mention his personality far more interesting).

[nerdanel]

I don't have any problem with Bolt making those comments. Sports are largely entertainment, and he is very entertaining.

This is completely subjective, of course, but not being either a runner or a swimmer I find Bolt's accomplishments more impressive and awe-inspiring than Phelps' (not to mention his personality far more interesting).

Wouldn't the straightforward equivalent of Bolt's accomplishment in swimming being winning two golds in the 50M and 100M freestyle in two consecutive Olympics? While that would undoubtedly be considered a successful career for any swimmer or runner, it has been done before. More than once. And when that straightforward comparison is made, Bolt pales relative to Phelps's four Olympics and gold medal achievement at a variety of lengths and in a variety of disciplines. And of course, Phelps' achievement required a draining number of swims per games - seventeen swims in Beijing, each utilizing his full body (in a way that running does not) and each requiring maximum exertion for a much, much longer period of time than Bolt's 9-19 second performances.

[halplm]

I generally have a problem with anyone who exhibits such arrogance.

[nerdanel]

I generally have a problem with anyone who exhibits such arrogance.

Absolutely. Imagine a Nobel Prize winner who crowns herself a "living legend" and the "greatest scientist of all time," or an astoundingly talented musician who proclaims himself the "greatest singer of all time," or an elected official who makes massive social reforms and proclaims herself the "greatest public servant of all time." No matter what the context or how great the person's achievement, I think it fundamentally tarnishes their achievement and makes them less worthy of respect to talk in such an arrogant fashion.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Wouldn't the straightforward equivalent of Bolt's accomplishment in swimming being winning two golds in the 50M and 100M freestyle in two consecutive Olympics?

No. You are again trying to compare two different disciplines and apply the same standard to them. It's like trying to say that a prosecutor is a more successful lawyer than a civil rights plaintiff's attorney because she won more trials. You can't compare them that way because a prosecutor has more trials to win.

Bolt and Phelps both have credible arguments for being the greatest in their respective sports, but as to which one's accomplishments are more impressive, that is purely subjective.

[nerdanel]

Wouldn't the straightforward equivalent of Bolt's accomplishment in swimming being winning two golds in the 50M and 100M freestyle in two consecutive Olympics?

No. You are again trying to compare two different disciplines and apply the same standard to them. It's like trying to say that a prosecutor is a more successful lawyer than a civil rights plaintiff's attorney because she won more trials. You can't compare them that way because a prosecutor has more trials to win.

The comparison is not that disparate. Michael Phelps was not just a specialist swimmer (as almost all swimmers are at the Olympic level), but a swimmer who won gold at a variety of types of events within swimming - sprinting (e.g., 100FR (R) and 100FL), endurance (200FL, 400IM), middle-distance (200FR), etc. Bolt certainly has the option to excel within similar categories - sprint, middle distance, and endurance (even ignoring hurdles); track features multiple events in each category. What made Phelps exceptional is that he could straddle many categories of distance and technique within his sport in world-class fashion; Bolt cannot. It's not that the equivalent doesn't exist within running. It's that Bolt, unlike Phelps, does not excel in multiple extant categories within his sport.

If the response is that it's not possible to be a good 100M runner and 5000M runner, well that's the point! It didn't seem possible to do in swimming, either. We had no idea it was remotely possible to take the 400 IM and the 100 FL and the 200 FL and the 200 FR and the 200 IM and wash it all down with some relays. No one does that; Ryan Lochte's spectacularly failed attempt to come close illustrates how utterly impossible a feat it was in the first place; Ryan (whatever I might think of him as a person) is one of the best swimmers the world has seen. And yet. Not close. What Phelps did was impossible until it wasn't. And somehow, because Michael Phelps managed to do the spectacularly absurd, people now are losing sight of how utterly insane and exceptional and unachievable what he did is, or are essentially taking the view that swimming has so many medals that well, it's easy to take home a whole bunch. The "more medals" argument does not go quite so far when it comes to running, which is not short on events itself, unlike the "javelin thrower" argument that was proffered earlier in this thread. (Swimming has thirteen individual men's events; running has nine, even excluding the marathon - 100, 200, 400, 800, 5000, 10000, 110m hurdles, 400m hurdles. If you want to add relays to the mix, swimming has three and running has two; not an absurd differential.)

To put it in your analogy's terms, Phelps is the equivalent of an attorney whose skillset is so versatile that he excels at prosecution work, civil rights trials, and securities defense work, and is able to win a death penalty trial one week while singlehandedly writing, arguing, and prevailing on a securities motion for summary judgment in a nine-figure case the next week. (Again, I know that pretty much never happens and seems almost physically impossible to pull off. That's the point.) Bolt, on the other hand, is the equivalent of an exceptional prosecutor - exceptional, but not in the "we'll probably never ever see this again in our lifetimes" category.

Bolt and Phelps both have credible arguments for being the greatest in their respective sports, but as to which one's accomplishments are more impressive, that is purely subjective.

I don't agree; there is an objective component in place here. To explain: It would definitely be possible for a runner to come along whose achievement was so versatile and multifaceted in his or her sport that it was equivalent to Phelps's in swimming. Phelps demonstrated achievement in butterfly, freestyle, the "all-around" (IM), and relay swimming, which itself requires different technique and skill. If a runner comes along who demonstrates achievement in sprinting, middle-distance, relay, and hurdles (ETA and by "achievement," I mean gold medal, world record-setting performances), that would be the equivalent of Phelps's achievement and I would recognize it as such, regardless of the precise medal counts of the two athletes involved. Bolt is objectively and straightforwardly not that athlete.

(and as for internally, within swimming, I think it is not only undisputed but beyond any possible dispute that Phelps is the greatest swimmer of all time. This is just not something that I've ever seen two swimmers argue about. No other man or woman has come close. One of Phelps' fierce rivals, Milorad Cavic of Serbia, who lost to Phelps by 0.01 second in the 100FL in Beijing and finished fourth to Phelps' first in the same event this Olympics, put it plainly this past week: "I'm a one-trick pony, and he's the king.")

[halplm]

nel, you can't win this argument. The world thinks swimming is easy, but Bolt runs FAST! ... and his name is BOLT! That's like... awesome.

[River]

I thought the "greatest athlete" crown went to the winner of the decathlon.

[halplm]

I thought the "greatest athlete" crown went to the winner of the decathlon.

Generally speaking, yes. And I would argue deservedly so. The 10 events of the decathlon are so diverse it's pretty amazing what they do.

I'm still amazed at Ashton Eaton's performance the last two days. he wasn't going for any records or he could have smashed them. I don't think he was going any more than 90% outside of the 100m... and he stopped short of any PRs in the jumping/vaulting events. He is still improving all the throwing events due to still learning techniques!

That man will be setting world records for years to come. I'm glad he got this gold medal out of the way safely. I don't blame him at all for not seeking records. The only thing that could have prevented him winning is the sometimes odd things that happen in the decathlon. It's not a bad idea to play it safe. But with this accomplishment out of the way, I expect we'll see some good things in the future .

[nerdanel]

@ River: I have far less of an argument with a cross-sport superlative being applied to the winner of the decathlon (although I would still need to see decathlon achievement over multiple Olympics for it to compare favorably to Phelps). As for the former point, it seems that even the inimitable Bolt might agree with me:

“It’s what I came here to do,” Bolt said, possessing the familiar boldness of being the world’s best sprinter. “I’m now a legend. I’m also the greatest athlete to live. I’ve got nothing left to prove. I’ve showed the world I’m the best.”

Ashton Eaton of the United States later won the decathlon, which comes with the mythic title of world’s greatest athlete. Asked whether Eaton or Bolt deserved that designation, Trey Hardee of the United States, who finished second to Eaton, said, “Ashton is the best athlete to ever walk the planet, hands down.”

Hardee added, “Just because you’re fast doesn’t make you an athlete.”

Eaton, the world-record holder, demurred. “There’s no fight,” he said. “Usain is clearly awesome. He’s an icon in his own right. Titles are for books.”

Bolt later graciously reconsidered in Eaton’s favor, saying, “I’m a great athlete, but to do 10 events, especially the 1,500” — the metric mile — “I’ve got to give it to him.”

Source here.

(BTW, while coincidentally both Phelps and Eaton are American and Bolt is not, I would make the same arguments vis-a-vis a 22-medal/18-gold medalist who medaled across multiple swimming disciplines; a five-time gold medalist who is a running sprint specialist; and a winner of the decathlon regardless of country of origin.)

ETA Eaton's comments, btw, in stark contrast to Bolt's, show what sportsmanship requires immediately after winning a superlative Olympic title.

[River]

1500 m is NOT a mile in metric. The conversion factor rounds to 1600 m/mile. What are the track people on about?

[halplm]

Well, it's the race they run that is closest to a mile. I think that calling the 1500m the "metric mile" was incorrect, as that is usually what is referred to as 1600m... which isn't run at any competitive event after high school...

[Elentári]

I always thought Mohammed Ali was the greatest...

The great man would probably admire Bolt's personna, considering he once said

At home I am a nice guy: but I don't want the world to know. Humble people, I've found, don't get very far.
Muhammad Ali

Above all, Bolt is a showman, who inspires a generation of Jamaicans...
He is certainly a "living legend" since he is the first man to successfully defend both 100m and 200m sprint titles. And I wish you could see this BBC video clip where the 3 Jamaican medallist were being interviewed by the BBC post-race. In the middle of the interview the medal ceremony was taking place for David Rudisha in the 800m. Bolt immediately turned his back on the interview and stood to attention for the Kenyan anthem, saluted and applauded Rudisha after it, before continuing the interview and talking humbly about the people he owed his success to, and the support and love he receives from the London people.