Borat: Cultural Learnings of America, etc.

[truehobbit]

So, how much did you and your son identify with those "masses"?

I'm wondering if maybe one finds that funny only if one can think that "they" are absurd, or if it's also funny if what you see makes you think: 'hey, I do that, too'...?

[JewelSong]

I'm wondering if maybe one finds that funny only if one can think that "they" are absurd, or if it's also funny if what you see makes you think: 'hey, I do that, too'...?

Both, actually. We all have our prejudices and stereo-typical ideas and sometimes its only when we are hit in the face with them that we realize, "Hey, I do that sometimes!"

I remember taking a week-long diversity training course at Tufts University and really starting to understand what a long way we all have to go to disabuse ourselves of our own pre-judgements and ideas. It's an on-going task and a difficult one to deal with because nobody wants to be thought of as a bigot or as prejudiced. Yet we are all victims of our own experiences and upbringing.

I think movies like "Borat," as over-the-top and potentially offensive as they may be, force people to take a long, hard look at some very uncomfortable truths. And looking at truth is always a good thing.

[truehobbit]

That's certainly an interesting point, Jewel. Normally, those formats (and they abound) cater for a clientele that considers themselves not "one of them" when it comes to people in general. If you can see your own foibles exposed and take that as a hint to remedy them, that is certainly a good thing.

Normally, the exposing is done in such a way that the victim has no chance to come across in any way favourably, though.

For me, the exposure to ridicule of a foreign culture is only part of the problem. The other is, as Cerin put it, that people were [...] lied to for the purpose of exposing [...] them.

I know it's silly to judge without having seen the movie, but even from mere report I feel so much the way Whistler described in his first post in here, that I would not consider boosting the income of the movie (a comparable situation to what we're discussing in the Mel Gibson thread, really).

The stereotypical "Russian" villagers and their "habits" were poking fun at US and our own ignorance and prejudices, not at them.

Btw, the foreign culture used for the movie is not that of Russia but of Kazakhstan (not sure about the English spelling) - which also happens to be mostly Muslim...

The day Cohen holds the mirror to his own culture and religion I might begin to reconsider. Although even then I resent the kind of 'humour' that derives its point of other people's perceived weaknesses.

It's an on-going task and a difficult one to deal with because nobody wants to be thought of as a bigot or as prejudiced. Yet we are all victims of our own experiences and upbringing.

Are we really "victims" of that? Isn't it rather a natural process that leads us to these prejudices?
Not that it wouldn't nevertheless be good if we tried to overcome them as much as possible.
But I think that if we try to overcome them, it should be with an idea to better ourselves, and not so as to improve what others think of us. Getting rid of ideas that are the result of one's upbringing so that you won't be thought of as a bigot strikes me as somewhat wrong in itself.
But that's all for a different discussion, I think.

[JewelSong]

I know it's silly to judge without having seen the movie,

Indeed.

It's an on-going task and a difficult one to deal with because nobody wants to be thought of as a bigot or as prejudiced. Yet we are all victims of our own experiences and upbringing.

Are we really "victims" of that? Isn't it rather a natural process that leads us to these prejudices?

Perhaps. The same way it is a "natural process" to wage war.

We are victims of our own baser instincts. Sometimes these instincts do not serve us well and need to be overcome through education and our own intelligence.

Getting rid of ideas that are the result of one's upbringing so that you won't be thought of as a bigot strikes me as somewhat wrong in itself.

Not so you won't be thought of as a bigot. So you won't be one.

No one likes to be "exposed." But sometimes that is the only way to get people to start to confront their inner prejudices. And when people are confronted with them, the first reaction is anger at the situation that caused the exposure. "How dare you expose me for what I am? And without my permission!"

It ain't easy. And it ain't always kind. But I think it is necessary, if mind-sets are to be changed. And I do think they need to be changed, as painful as that may be.

[truehobbit]

I know it's silly to judge without having seen the movie,

Indeed.

Yes, but sometimes it's nevertheless a reasonable decision.
I don't think I have to kill someone in order to figure out whether it feels like a wrong thing to do.

Not so you won't be thought of as a bigot. So you won't be one.

"Thought of" is what you said.

because nobody wants to be thought of as a bigot

It ain't easy. And it ain't always kind. But I think it is necessary, if mind-sets are to be changed. And I do think they need to be changed, as painful as that may be.

No. There just isn't any justification for unkindness, I think.

[JewelSong]

Well, whatever. Unless you have seen the movie, it seems pointless to discuss it any further, really.

I don't think I have to kill someone in order to figure out whether it feels like a wrong thing to do.

Hardly an apt analogy. Seeing a movie isn't murder. Point is, you can't discuss it with any kind of knowledge if you only have second-hand information. I didn't see "Passion of the Christ" for similar second-hand reasons, but I wouldn't attempt to have a discussion about it with someone who had.

Being forced to confront one's own prejudices can certainly seem unkind and I know from experience can be painful. I think it is necessary in order to change anything.

And I think things need to be changed.

And I thought the movie was very funny, too.

That's all.

[truehobbit]

Seeing a movie isn't murder.

Well, no. That's why it's only an analogy. It means that there are many things you can well form an opinion about without having first-hand experience of them.


But I'd watch it if it was on the telly.

[Hachimitsu]

Uhh... I just wanted to say... uh I don't think Borat was made to make fun of Kazakhstan. I think it was made to point out some potential prejudices Americans may have without even knowing it. Also how political correctness can get to the point of absudity. But that's just me.

[Impenitent]

Wilma, I think all your posts in this thread (four of them in all ) have been very insightful.

Borat (or rather, Cohen) reminds me very much of Norman Gunston, a 1970s creation of the well-known Australian actor and comedian Gary MacDonald. His character was also very extreme and he also went around "interviewing" various celebrities, both major and minor, asking outrageous "innocent" questions and poking a lot of fun - mostly at stereotypes and thoughtless, reflexive attitudes.

I was only in my teens at the time but much of what MacDonald did then made me squirm at the same time as I laughed, but he was indeed an agent of change, by undermining, poking, scratching, teasing at the veneer of many ingrained attitudes and causing Australians (for the most part) to look at themselves naked, so to speak.

I haven't seen Borat and am still not decided whether I want to see it - it's only recently been released in Oz. I think I probably won't - I go to the cinema so rarely I think I'm more likely to choose something else given a chance.

EDIT: Ha! I just read the Wikipedia text I linked to and found I'm not the only one to have seen the umbilical link:

The "ambush" interview technique pioneered by McDonald - founded on McDonald's considerable improvisational skills and precise comic timing wherein the actor creates a fully-rounded and often highly plausible character who is pretending to be stupid to throw their otherwise media-savvy subjects off guard. This technique has recently been revived with considerable success (with no apparent credit to Garry McDonald) by the British comic Sasha Baron Cohen with his characters Ali G and Borat.

[Hachimitsu]

That is a great point Impy. I appreciate how that wikipedia link mentioned precise comic timing. So many of the jokes or sarcastic points just would not work without expert timing.

Sasha Baron Cohen actually won a Golden Globe yesterday so it seems the Hollywood Foreign Press seems to have got the joke.

[Primula Baggins]

And gave the most disgusting acceptance speech I've ever heard. Yikes.

Probably another sign that this is not the film for Prim.