Musicals and Operas

[Jnyusa]

Nary a one
When they've been
So much fun?

[Alatar]

His voice strikes me as fairly typical of those you'd hear in musicals. I could not find any recordings of his in the classical section at Amazon.com, although he apparently appears on a video of Poulenc's Dialogue of the Carmelites in the role of Thierry. This production is in English rather than French.

Okay, I just played some of the Jekyll & Hyde for my wife. I asked her whether she could picture Warlow performing opera. Her response, "No, he has a typical musical theatre voice." That was without any prompting from me, nor has she read my comments. When she said that I laughed then said to her, "That's nearly verbatim what I said!"

<Snip>
I'm sorry, Alatar, but I really can't picture Warlow doing opera. Perhaps he could have if he'd gone that route in his training many years ago, but I don't think he could have cut it with the skill and training he has at present (or when those recordings were made).

Just goes to show doesn't it...

His portrayal of the Phantom of the Opera (in the first Australian production, ca. 1990), a demanding role, vocally, dramatically and physically, is regarded as being among the finest in the world. Critics have been quoted as noting his was the only performance to rival Michael Crawford's (the original Phantom in the West End and on Broadway) legendary interpretation of the role. At 29 years old, he became the youngest actor to hold the role, a distinction he holds to this day.

His opera roles include major roles in Die Fledermaus (as "Gabriel Eisenstein"), The Magic Flute (as "Papageno"), and A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Anthony Warlow was the youngest baritone ever to play the role of "Papageno", a role which he played for the first time at the age of 21

It seems to be a new trend - opera stars recording cross-over albums, 'slumming', if you will, in the world of popular music. Well, opera fans, this is the way to do it.

Anthony Warlow and David Hobson are phenoms in their native Australia, with only limited exposure in the US. Warlow, in particular, regularly crosses the barrier dividing opera, musical theater and pop. This album shows off two beautiful voices in a setting that suits them both.

And from the Opera Australia Homepage:

Artist Biography
Anthony Warlow

Anthony Warlow Background: Born, Australia. Studied at the Sydney Conservatorium. Awarded: Joan Sutherland Scholarship, 1981; Advance Australia Award. ARIA Award The Main Event; elected a Living National Treasure by the National Trust of Australia
OA repertoire: Includes: Puck: A Midsummer Night's Dream, Monsieur Offenbach: Ba-Ta-Clan, Paris: Roméo et Juliette, Masetto: Don Giovanni, Bello: La fanciulla del West, Mitrane: Semiramide, Herald: Otello, Papageno: The Magic Flute, Defendant: Trial by Jury, Spalanzani: Les contes d'Hoffmann, Cristian: Un ballo in maschera, Eisenstein: Fledermaus, Baron Zsupan: Countess Maritza, Archibald Grosvenor: Patience, Henry Higgins: My Fair Lady, Captain Corcoran: HMS Pinafore, Learned Judge: Trial by Jury
Other Companies: Sky Masterson: Guys and Dolls (Adelaide Festival Theatre Trust); A Song to Sing-O (Theatre South); Enjolras: Les Misérables (Australian production); Phantom: The Phantom of the Opera (Cameron Mackintosh); Prof Higgins (QPAC); tour of The Music of Andrew Lloyd Webber (Australia, NZ, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan); Archibald Craven: The Secret Garden (Gordon Frost); Teen Angel: Grease (The Arena Spectacular); The Main Event, Cervantes/Don Quixote: Man of La Mancha (Gordon Frost/SEL); Leeuwin Estate 20th Anniversary Concert with Lesley Garrett (Leeuwin Estate); The Magic of the Music Tour with Lesley Garrett
Recordings/Videos: Centre Stage, On the Boards, Back in the Swing, Midnight Dreaming, Best of Act One (Polydor); Jekyll and Hyde (WEA); Patience, Fledermaus (OA); The Main Event (Roadshow); Face the Music: The Snow Goose, Tenor & Baritone (Skylark Records)

How easily we are decieved!

This man can do it all. He just does each so well that it's hard not to believe that's all he can do.

[Erunáme]

I think you and Tom need to start a new thread, Alatar.

[Alatar]

You're probably right Eru. Would a kindly Thain/Marshall please split of the relevant posts to Cottage of Lost Play?

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

You got me, Alatar! Still, just because he performed in all those operas doesn't mean he was any good.

Seriously, perhaps he's like Ms. Chenowith where he can change his vocal technique (not style, technique) depending on the milieu. That seems like it would be incredibly difficult to do.

I can't imagine there are too many who are able to do that. Have you heard Domingo or Pavarotti singing popular music? They sound like opera singers singing popular music. Have you heard Michael Bolton or some other pop artist sing opera? My reaction is either, "That's not bad...for a pop artist," or

Then there are guys like Andrea Bocelli who sings a variety of types of music, and seems to perform them all with a reasonably high degree of competence, but his technique from one type to another changes very little if at all.

*shrug*

Another limerick someone?

[Jnyusa]

Would a kindly Thain/Marshall please split of the relevant posts to Cottage of Lost Play?

Um, Alatar, you're able to do that.

But I'll do it for you if you wish. Do you want all the posts about musicals/operas split out? Can you give me a clue how far back that particular discussion started?

Jn

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Jn, I'd say it started with this post

Again, some examples would be a help. Don't dismiss "belter" voices. Its a style of singing that requires as much training as operatic style and most of the practitioners can do both with ease.

I challenged Alatar's last statement and it went on from there.

I still disagree with that statement by the way. I believe Chenowith and Warlow are exceptions rather than examples of "most".

[Jnyusa]

I split off posts from a bit earlier than that, Tom. Hope this is OK. I'll try to fix links in both threads but I'm having trouble finding where the beginning was in the other thread because the posts were mixed together.

Jn

[Alatar]

Thanks Jn.

Tom, I'm being trained by an Opera singer. She is vocal coach to all kinds of voices and insists that the same training is used for all. Breathing, head voice, chest voice, falsetto, transitions, diaphragm control, deep breathing, muscle support; these are all common to every type of vocal training. Only the delivery alters.

One who is properly trained can achieve the operatic style, the light operatic style or the "belt" equally well. I have met many Operatic singers who cannot "switch off" the operatice tone and timbre, and also many Musical singers who cannot achieve those skills, but I do not rate those as true singers. The true singer can achieve either end of the spectrum at will.

Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but it is my belief that most vocalists at the top of their profession have been properly trained. Of course there are occasional "natural talents" who sing purely by imitation, but those are very rare. I don't claim to be either. I am merely a reasonably talented amateur with a little training.

Another for consideration. Ruthie Henshall. I have not heard of her doing Opera, but the range and calibre of her delivery leads me to believe she would make an excellent operatic Mezzo.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Tom, I'm being trained by an Opera singer. She is vocal coach to all kinds of voices and insists that the same training is used for all. Breathing, head voice, chest voice, falsetto, transitions, diaphragm control, deep breathing, muscle support; these are all common to every type of vocal training. Only the delivery alters.

I'm not sure what you mean by "delivery", but I totally agree with the rest of that statement. Placement, where the voice resonates, is very important. (Perhaps that's what you meant by delivery?) It seems to me that is the prime difference between what we consider a clear, open sound heard in the best singers and the nasal, pinched sound common in musical theatre. Tension in the throat, tongue, jaw, and other places can intefere with vocal production.

Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but it is my belief that most vocalists at the top of their profession have been properly trained. Of course there are occasional "natural talents" who sing purely by imitation, but those are very rare. I don't claim to be either. I am merely a reasonably talented amateur with a little training.

There are many types of training. I believe that opera singers receive some types of training that musical theatre performers don't receive and vice versa. Opera singers receive training in foreign language, for example. The repertoires, and the demands of those repertoires, are far different, too. That's true even among opera singers.

As far as training in vocal production, you would think it would be more or less the same regardless. However, I don't think that's true even among vocal coaches. There are various theories and techniques. What works for one teacher, or student, may not work for another.

Yes, there are professionals who are more-or-less naturals, or are able to create beautiful sounds despite questionable technique. I think poor technique eventually catches up to most of those folks, however, in the form of nodes on the vocal chords or other such ailments. The people that sing into their 70s do so because of excellent technique and proper care for their voices.

[Erunáme]

You know what bugs me the most about Sara Brightman? Her attempt to sing in an operatic style...and sometimes switching to that operatic style in one of her pop-type songs. And maybe then switching to a breathy style. For no good reason, that bugs me. She should stick to musicals. My class voice teacher had the same opinion.

The funny thing is, I could deal with the songs I heard from musicals until I took class voice. Then I learned about breathiness, where to place the larynx(?), etc. Now I can hear stuff that bugs me when listen to people sing. Sometimes Iavas will play a Shakira CD. That is the absolute worst. That woman does so many screwy things with her voice. *cringes*

[JewelSong]

What bugs me about Sarah Brightman is that she sings so many songs by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

There are many ways to produce sound and many kinds of "delivery" in singing. Needless to say, what works for one style of music may not work for another.

However, there is a correct way to sing, no matter what style you are singing, that will keep your vocal cords healthy and not do any damage. Many popular singers sing incorrectly and their only "projection" is the microphone.

I am surprised to read here about so many "cross-over" singers - who apparently switch between opera and musicals. I am dubious about how successful this might be. An opera singer projects his/her voice in a very particular way. It would not work for a musical, or indeed, for any kind of amplification beyond simple sound support. Operatic style is a very specific way of singing. And you must be able to project into the back of the hall without a microphone. That's what makes it opera!

One singer who has not been mentioned is Audra MacDonald, who has sung both classically and also in musicals. The part of Sarah in "Ragtime" was written especially for her range (which is considerable.) She has an absolutely gorgeous voice - pure and full.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Is there any reason why this thread should not be moved to the Cottage of Lost Play?

[JewelSong]

Is there any reason why this thread should not be moved to the Cottage of Lost Play?

I thought that was part of the original "please split this thread" request...

Would a kindly Thain/Marshall please split of the relevant posts to Cottage of Lost Play?

[axordil]

None that I can see, V.

There are even differences of style WITHIN musical and opera styles, often national. Gilbert and Sullivan is not Lerner and Lowe, and just listen to an old Anna Russell album when she goes over the different European operatic voices.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Oh good. And away we go!

[Estel]

I'm sure opera singers can do broadway and vice versa. I guess for me it's like watching that new reality show "So You Think You Can Dance." There are people on there who do hip hop, some that do ballet, some that do ballroom, tap, etc etc. My two favorite types to watch are the hip hop and the lyric/ballet dancing. The broadway and the opera, if you will. I love watching the hip hop, and there are moments where my reaction is just "oh WOW!!!! That is absolutely amazing!." I get the same listening to broadway style.

But, there is nothing for me that can match the skill, precision and graceful beauty of a classically trained dancer. Same with opera.

I love broadway type music. I am often impressed with the music, but I'm sorry, once you've heard Kiri Te Kanawa hit a high E above C, and hear her do it softly, with a completely pure tone, and making it sound easy.... nothing can compare.

Seeing one of the crazy breakdance moves in hip hop is amazing, but watching a ballet dancer lift his/her leg to an almost verticle split in one slow exquisite movement is, for me, where beauty is.

I can appreciate the skill of broadway. Heck, I loooooove broadway, but I'll be honest, if I want to listen to something for the sake of pure beauty and skill, I listen to opera.

[Alatar]

There is no doubt that there is a difference in taste between the two. My argument is that there is an equal amount of skill at the top of each profession. But it seems that there I am fighting a losing battle. Is it so surprising that someone with the skill to sing opera would choose to sing something else simply because they prefer it?

There are average to poor Opera singers. There are average to poor Musical singers. The truly talented, however, are capable of either. (And no, I don't class Sarah Brightman as talented in either category.)

In fact, I find it a lot harder to listen to a bad opera singer. They have a tendency to produce a "manufactured" sound. My vocal coach describes it as a "covered" voice if that means anything to you. You know the type. They warble something that's full of vibrato and strange vowel shapes and seem to be incapable of producing a consonant. I would happily shoot those practitioners.

[Alys]

But it seems that there I am fighting a losing battle. Is it so surprising that someone with the skill to sing opera would choose to sing something else simply because they prefer it?

No, you're not and no, it isn't I've been following this, very interesting discussion, and saying very little because I do not know much about the technicalities of singing or music - but I can just as easily understand someone choosing to be in musicals rather than opera as I can understand them choosing ballroom dancing over ballet. I myself prefer ballet (actually I adore ballet ) but just as it's not everyone's cup of tea to watch, I can imagine it's not everyone's cup of tea to perform.

As for deciding which type of singer is best (which I'm aware is not really what you're discussing) - well I don't have the technical skill to do that, I only know what I like personally. But what is 'best' anyway? If we try decide on what we prefer then I think it's too subjective, and prone to prejudice, but if we judge it on popular success and money made then it's not critical enough, for we must have some sort of standard surely...

For the record I like Opera and Musicals pretty much equally

Talking of a lack of training though, tell me what is the critical impression of Russell Watson? To me he sounds pretty good, I like his voice (as a great many others appear to do as well) but he has apparently had little or no formal training. Is he good? Or does he just sound good to those of us who don't know any better?

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I would happily shoot those practitioners.

There are probably a lot of people who would be willing to lend you their gun, too.

I do know what you mean by "covered". It's produced through lots of tension in tongue, lips, jaw, you name it. The antithesis of the free and open sound I've mentioned.

I agree that a musical theatre singer with very good technique could learn to sing opera and vice versa. I don't think most musical singers have very good technique. Most opera singers have technique that is flawed in one way or another, too. We're human, we're flawed. It kinda comes with the territory.