Musicals and Operas

[Cerin]

What an interesting discussion.

I think one thing that might contribute to the idea that broadway singers are lesser artists than opera singers, is that often times one sees someone like Antonio Banderas or (name skips my mind - woman who played Frazier's ex-wife) given a lead role in a musical, whereas you simply don't see big name actors given operatic roles -- they just wouldn't be able to do it.

I hazard to say that acting ability is more important in musicals than it is in opera; there have been some fabulous opera singers who were reputedly somewhat wooden on stage with respect to their dramatic abilities I think, but in opera the music takes precedence, whereas I think in musicals, the acting and singing are of equal importance.

I hope I haven't repeated what's already been said, I read through the thread rather quickly.

[Estel]

Alatar, I don't necessarily think that opera singers are better than broadway - it's just so different, it's hard to compare. Like the hip hop and ballet. Both types of dancers can be incredibly skilled, but only a few can do the other style. I practiced ballet for 15 years, and started learning Swing dancing after all that training when I was 19. It was hard. Learning to lean forward, stick my butt out a bit, not turning my legs out, etc etc. I basically had to unlearn one in order to do the other.

When I first started learning broadway style music, it was the same. Suddenly I was having to learn how to get out of head voice and use chest voice more, belt it without straining my vocal chords in the chest voice, to switch from chest into head at my break without it showing that I was switching... these are difficult things to learn.

And yeah, those bad opera singers, with shakey voices and warbling sounds. You almost start to think that they're using vibrato in order to hide the fact that they can't find the note, rather than as a show of skill. Then there are the coloraturas who screech more than sing, and then pat themselves on the back for being able to reach that high note, when really, they just screamed it.

As is being discussed in the art thread, I think it's just a matter of taste. I find more grace in opera than I do in broadway. I find broadway to be incredibly entertaining, with moments of emotional intensity. Opera speaks to my soul.

[Jude]

The coolest discussions happen when I don't visit for a few days!

That'll teach me.

[Alatar]

Well, feel free to jump in!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And don't stay away so much.

[Jude]

Awww....

Some of this talk of Musicals vs. Opera is skirting around another issue - what is opera, anyway?

A drama with sung dialogue instead of spoken? So then, what's the difference between a musical and an opera, anyway? (those of you that know my thoughts on the subject already know what my answer would be: e.g. "None at all!")

It really depends on how broadly or how narrowly we want to depend "opera". There are some über-purists that would insist that only works with absolutely no spoken dialogue, and only with music that directly supports the drama (in other word, no "pretty tunes" for melody's sake) count as opera. By these criteria, the works of Monteverdi and Wagner (and some late Verdi) would qualify, and some of the most beloved works in the repertoire (for example, Bizet, Rossini, and even most Mozart) would not.

What about the Lord of the Rings musical? Is it an opera? By my own definition, yes. But then, it would be hard to pack the Queen Elizabeth theatre night after night if it were billed as such.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

What about the Lord of the Rings musical? Is it an opera? By my own definition, yes. But then, it would be hard to pack the Queen Elizabeth theatre night after night if it were billed as such.

Actually, I recall reading that they don't want it referred to as a musical. They prefer "Stage Play" or some such.


I'm sure there is a definition that differentiates between musical theatre and opera. In fact, here's some from Wikipedia:

Musical theatre (sometimes, but not often, spelled theater) is a form of theatre combining music, songs, dance, and spoken dialogue. It is closely related to opera, frequently being distinguished by the use of popular music of various forms (and thus usually different instrumentation), the use of unaccompanied dialogue (though some musicals are entirely accompanied, such as Les Misérables, and some operas have spoken dialogue, such as Carmen), and the avoidance of many operatic conventions (though some operas avoid these, too).

Opera refers to a dramatic art form, originating in Italy, in which the emotional content or primary entertainment is conveyed to the audience as much through music, both vocal and instrumental, as it is through the lyrics. From the beginning of the form (about 1600), there has been contention whether the music is paramount, or the words, a theme that Richard Strauss took up in his final opera, Capriccio (1942). Also, dramatic speech in opera is often sung in recitative. By contrast, in musical theater, dialogue is spoken and an actor's dramatic performance is generally more important than in opera.

Of course we know that singspiels, such as Die Entführing aus dem Serail and Die Zauberflöte by Mozart, have spoken dialogue but my guess is that there are very few who do not consider them operas:

Singspiel ("song-play") is a form of German-language music drama, similar to modern musical theater, though it is also referred to as a type of operetta or opera. It is characterized by spoken dialogue, sometimes performed over music, interspersed with ensembles, popular songs, ballads and arias (which were often folk-like and strophic in nature).

Then there are also operettas, such as Die Fledermaus and Der Zigeunerbaron by Johann Strauss:

Operetta (literally, "little opera") is a performance art-form similar to opera, though it generally deals with less serious topics. Often some of the libretto is spoken rather than sung (but this is true of some operas as well). Instead of moving from one musical number (literally so indicated in the scores) to another, the performers in operetta intersperse the musical segments (e.g. aria, recitative, chorus) with periods of dialogue without any singing or musical accompaniment, though sometimes some musical themes are played quietly under the dialogue). In some 19th Century entertainments called melodrama, music accompanied spoken dialogue for special effect. Music is sometimes played quietly under the spoken dialogue in some light operas also.

So it would seem that these different forms of music + acting + costumes + scenery are generally divided by style and content.

[Alatar]

Sondheim was asked the difference between Operas and Musicals. He said:

"Operas are performed in Opera Houses"

[Jude]

Actually, I recall reading that they don't want it referred to as a musical. They prefer "Stage Play" or some such.

That's fine - they can call it that if they like.

Mozart billed Don Giovanni as a dramma giocoso, Rossini's Mosé in Egitto was an azione tragico-sacra, Monteverdi's Orfeo was a favola in musica.

Do you know what opera means? It means work, as in any musical work. So the term would apply equally to a sonata, a string quartet, a jazz standard...

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

That's fine - they can call it that if they like.

Mozart billed Don Giovanni as a dramma giocoso, Rossini's Mosé in Egitto was an azione tragico-sacra, Monteverdi's Orfeo was a favola in musica.

I knew that. (You learn all that junk when you're a music major. )

Do you know what opera means? It means work, as in any musical work. So the term would apply equally to a sonata, a string quartet, a jazz standard...

Actually, opera is "works" (plural); the singular is opus. I believe opera was given that name because it was a series of (musical) works strung together. Claudio Monteverdi's La favola d'Orfeo is the oldest existing opera.

[Alatar]

Its also worth noting that originally Opera was entertainment for the masses, not an elite as it seems to marketed nowadays. In essence, Musicals are what Opera was meant to be.

[Jude]

Actually, opera is "works" (plural); the singular is opus. I believe opera was given that name because it was a series of (musical) works strung together. Claudio Monteverdi's La favola d'Orfeo is the oldest existing opera.

That's interesting - because in modern Italian, it's a singular, and the plural is opere. So a plural became a singular, and developed a plural of a plural?


Are you sure that the plural of opus is not opii? (excuse my Latin ignorance)

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Are you sure that the plural of opus is not opii? (excuse my Latin ignorance)

Wikipedia:

Opus is a Latin word for work. The plural of opus is opera

Yourdictionary.com:

Opus (Noun)

Pronunciation: ['o-pês]

Definition 1: (Erudite) A creative work, such as a novel, musical piece, or painting.

Usage 1: The plural of "opus" is "opera," so the question arises, how is it possible to pluralize "opera," too ("operas")? Italian took the final [a] of the unusual Latin plural as the feminine singular ending found in many Italian nouns, such as la casa "the house," mia mamma "my mother," and began using the plural form as a discrete (separate) word. English borrowed "opus" from Latin but "opera," from Italian, the dominant language of the opera at the time...

Classical Music Archives:

opera (It., work, but actually plural of Lat. opus, a work; Fr. opéra; Ger. Oper). The term is an abbreviation of opera in musica.

[aldaron]

Hi there everyone, this is my first post to this illustrious form in this august Hall.

As a professional opera singer, having read over this thread about various aspects of two music theater traditions, I thought I would weigh in on what my experience has taught me. In no particular order. I won't quote because there are too many.

CANDIDE is called on the following site both an operetta and a musical:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/candide/index.html

Whereas in Broadway keys of songs are often changed to accommodate a singer's range, this doesn't generally happen in opera or operetta, which I should say for those unfamiliar with the term is really not much different from a Broadway musical except in terms of the musical language it employs. There's dialogue with Acting alternating with set pieces or Numbers, which include solos or Arias, duets and Ensemble pieces. Many operettas would work just fine on Broadway-- if the Producers were still hiring "legit" opera voices to sing them. But Operetta, like opera, is written to be done without amplification, and mics and amps are the name of the game on Broadway now. Occasionally my agents gets a call from a Broadway producer for him to send "crossover" artists to audition for some revival of one of the Musicals written for operatic voices like Showboat or The King and I, and invariably so far the reaction is : "that's not the sound we're looking for."

So the issue of whether Broadway singers can sing opera or not is more an issue of whether opera singers are allowed to sing Broadway or not, and the curret answer with a few exceptions is NO. Les Miz has a few parts that require operatic training, and some that are designed for pop voices to sing, all mixed into a comfortable dynamic homogeneity by the Sound Crew who keep supplying batteries to the cordless mikes.

On the issue of mic-ing opera, I have it on first hand authority that Kathleen Battle was miked at the Met before they fired her, and also that Pavarotti was miked. I happened to be in the auditorium when Denyce Graves was testing out whether she could sing a song from Showboat that required "belting" or more accurately singing and staying in the bottom of her register without being amplified. She was perfectly audible, but the point is they would have miked her if necessary and no one would have known except The Wise (meaning those in Power).

On the other hand, the "world renowned" blind tenor whose name we all know was a dismal flop in Werther when he sang it a few years ago in Detroit or somewhere because they didn't mic him and he couldn't be heard.

My favorite crossover story so far was Linda Ronstadt's reaction to singing Mimi in La Boheme: "Opera is hard!"

Basically it comes down, just like in the Matrix, to Choice. These days Broadway producers choose a certain sound that they think the people will pay money to hear, and singers mist choose a direction to go in with their careers. The ones with lighter opera voices and who can act and hopefully dance have a chance to get on Broadway, but Nelson Eddy would have a hard time today.

What kind of tenor am I? you might be asking. I do the serious stuff. I've been asked often whethet I've done any musicals or plays, becaus eI can act. I would do plays if asked. Broadway and most light opera is just not my cup of tea anyway.

Aldaron

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What a great first post! Thanks for coming here and sharing some of your experience and knowledge with us, Aldaron

I really know nothing at all about signing styles (my only musical endeavors are in the realm of West African percussion). But when I saw the LOTR Symphony recently one of the things that really impressed me about the sixteen year old soprano Kaitlynn Lusk that sang with the symphony is that she seemed to be able to go from an "operatic" or classical sensibility when she sang the solo parts with the symphony to more of a "pop" sensibility when she sang "Gollum's Song" and "Into the West". Are you familiar with her at all?

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Welcome, Aldaron!

What kind of tenor am I? you might be asking.

Having heard some of your recordings my answer to that would be a heroic, or heldentenor, if you prefer. Something, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, that I definitely am not. I remember a college roomate of mine, a big Wagner fan, telling me that I would never sing the role of Siegfried. No kidding!

After seeing Aladaron's post I went back and read my previous posts in this thread to make sure that I had not misstated anything. I'll stand by what I posted. (Hopefully he'll concur with most of it. )

On the other hand, the "world renowned" blind tenor whose name we all know was a dismal flop in Werther when he sang it a few years ago in Detroit or somewhere because they didn't mic him and he couldn't be heard.

In contrast to Ms. Chenoweth, an apparent vocal chameleon, that "world renowned" blind tenor's vocal technique seems to be pretty consistent regardless of the type of music he's singing. Of course we won't find him performing in an actual opera in an actual opera house any time soon. He's probably raking in more dough-re-mi than most opera singers, though, so I don't think he's too upset about that.

The tenor aria "Pourquoi me réveiller" from Werther is one of my favorites, by the way. (Here's a sample as sung by Giuseppe di Stefano.*) I performed it in concert once.

I agree with Ms. Ronstadt, by the way. Opera is hard!


*Silly me! I was looking at Aldaron's site after making this post and noticed there's a link to a complete recording of him singing "Pourquoi": (Highspeed) (Dialup)

(Aldaron, I hope you don't mind me linking them from here. If so just let me know.)

[aldaron]

(my only musical endeavors are in the realm of West African percussion).

You and I share an interest there. One of my favorite things to listen to when I listen to music that's not in my head in West African percussion albums. But as an opera singer, and to keep this relevant to the thread, I have noticed that the singing style of singers from Guinee, Burkina Faso, Mali etc. is close to operatic style, necessarily so since the drums are so loud. I think I like the albums of field recordings of this music almost as much for that decibel aspect as for the drumming. I am very into real acoustin music, that is music that goes from the intsruments straight to your ears without electronic help along the way.

Are you familiar with her (Kaitlynn Lusk)at all?

No, I'm sorry, I'm not, at all. I'm a big fan of letting teenagers get their feet wet in classical music but I'm seeing a trend here which is more a marketing trend than anything else. Charlotte Church, for example. These kids would need to be in school a few more years before I would be interested in seeing them in a professional context, no matter how good they are. And I'm not saying Charlotte Church is good!

My question is, was Kaitlynn miked or not?

Best

Aldaron

[aldaron]

Mozart billed Don Giovanni as a dramma giocoso, Rossini's Mosé in Egitto was an azione tragico-sacra, Monteverdi's Orfeo was a favola in musica.

Actually I think Lorenzo Da Ponte, the librettist, called GIOVANNI a dramma giocoso. Back then the librettist was the author, and Mozart "just wrote the music".

These days the director is the star, more often than I'd like to see.

Aldaron

[aldaron]

I hazard to say that acting ability is more important in musicals than it is in opera; there have been some fabulous opera singers who were reputedly somewhat wooden on stage with respect to their dramatic abilities I think, but in opera the music takes precedence, whereas I think in musicals, the acting and singing are of equal importance.

A lot of people feel that way, but it shouldn't be so, at least in some operas. Some are meant just to be sung, like Turandot which is more an athletic event than a piece of theater, but when you have good actors who also can sing opera, in an opera, there is nothing like it. There is nothing in Broadway (that I know of) that is analogous to the musical continuity that a through-composed opera (as opposed to "number opera") has, and the effect that continuity has on the drama.

I see signs that I hope are true, that we are finally leaving the age of the Fat Opera Singer That Can't Act. Once opera got on TV people started learning or remembering that it's not just an acoustic art form.

Then hopefully we'll also leave the age of the Opera Singer Whose Vibrato is So Wide you can drive a Truck Through It. The audiences would need to demand that kind of thing stop, though, and apparently they can stand a lot more wobble than I can.

And then maybe we can also leave the age of Broadway Singers Whose Voices are so Quiet you Couldn't hear them Six Feet Away. And I must say the Opera world does not have the market cornered in the Wobble area. Many Broadway stars can wobble with the best of them and not fall down.


Aldaron

[aldaron]

After seeing Aladaron's post I went back and read my previous posts in this thread to make sure that I had not misstated anything. I'll stand by what I posted. (Hopefully he'll concur with most of it. ;))

That's the problem with talking to the World at Large, especially expressing an Opinion. To paraphrase a former SNL member, mine could be wrong, what do I know.

In contrast to Ms. Chenoweth, an apparent vocal chameleon, that "world renowned" blind tenor's vocal technique seems to be pretty consistent regardless of the type of music he's singing. Of course we won't find him performing in an actual opera in an actual opera house any time soon. He's probably raking in more dough-re-mi than most opera singers, though, so I don't think he's too upset about that.

Nor would I be, if I made his money. I'd be buying up pieces of the Shire to protect them from Sharkey's Men who are currently in power.

(Aldaron, I hope you don't mind me linking them (music clip links) from here. If so just let me know.)

Hey, I put them there so the world could hear them. Same with LEITHIAN. Link away.

Speaking of my little Tolkien opera, there are people in Poland who have gone crazy over it. Two separate websites have put up pages about it, complete with translation of the libretto.

I have been called heldentenor by many, and other kinds of tenor by others. I have decided that since I can handle the helden stuff and there's good money there if you can get into the circle, I'm just asserting it now even though I can still sing Werther and the Duke of Mantua. People seem to believe a lot of things if you just tell it to them. Some people get elected based on this tendency. That may be straying too far from the topic, except that the current political climate has made the Opera World a harder place to make a living. Established artists like me are being passed over for novices who will do it for next to nothing.

Aldaron