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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:55 pm 
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In another thread (Rogue 1) which you might have avoided because of the spoilers, I stated that when it comes to movies, strong women are still an anomaly.

Some movies have a female lead, but seldom are there female support actors to go with them. They still appear painfully unlikely in the particular universe they are portraying. Both Leia and Jyn are good strong women, but would not have gotten far in their universe without happening to be in the right family. The same goes for most of the Disney princesses (and yes, some Disney princes).

Others have pointed out (in the Rogue 1 thread) the current trend towards stronger Disney princesses and more "girl-oriented" pictures. I cringe at the phrase "girl-oriented". The solution to generations of girls having no choice but to watch boy-dominated adventure movies is not to make a girl-oriented adventure ghetto, but to make "inclusive" movies. Movies that you don't even notice are nicely balanced male and female.

Yes, there may be a dozen Disney princesses, but that's a dozen strong (or not so strong) women out of thousands of Disney characters. Can you name an adventure movie, Disney or otherwise, in which half or more of the roles are females with as much character as the males? I can think of some chick flicks (given that derogatory name because they evidently only appeal to "chicks") but not any adventure or sci fi movies.

I don't watch that many movies myself, so if you can come up with a list for me, I'd be delighted. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:13 am 
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Ghostbusters Reboot?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:30 am 
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The new Ghostbusters is on my list to see. I heard an amazing amount of vitriol over the choice to cast all women. Far more than we would have heard if it had just been 4 new guys.

And I have one to add to this list - Eye in the Sky - which was not half female, but had a sizeable number. The main cast consisted of people just doing their jobs, and some happened to be female. The local population was portrayed with more typical male-female roles.

Most action adventure movies, especially historical ones, can justify being almost entirely male because that's the society they are portraying. Or perhaps the only society they can imagine. But it's refreshing to see sci-fi and fantasy that is not just some young boy's fantasy. Avatar came closer to being an egalitarian society/movie. And Star Trek has always striven for least some diversity.

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:39 am 
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I'm very interested in seeing Hidden Figures. Is it making much noise over there?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:43 am 
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Yes, it just opened here today.

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:32 am 
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I saw the trailer with Rogue One, it looks great.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:10 am 
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I really enjoyed HIDDEN FIGURES!
:)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:19 am 
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I want to see it very much!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:58 am 
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When I was younger, a teen-ager and/or a child, it never bothered me that much: I loved inventing sequels to the movies I had just seen and however masculine the universe was in which it was set I managed to imagine a figure that was myself and found a place within it. For years, I imagined myself being Gandalf's lost daughter found in the dungeons of Mordor after the war and join the survivors after the war - and one day marrying Éomer... I did not feel like I needed a strong female character given to me in order to create one in my mind.

This said, in my children years I remember several stories/books/television series with very strong female characters, most of them European: there was "Luzie, der Schrecken der Strasse" about a little girl finding two little play-dooh figures which could transform into anything and making a lot of mayhem with them - so this was not only about a little girl who was the hero, but this girl, certainly not aged over 8 - came home after school where she was alone because her mother was working. It was a series from Chechoslovakia... There were the books of Astrid Lindgren, most notably "Ronja Räubertochter" - Ronja, the robber's daughter - with a female child lead. The book preceding the Never-ending story, Momo, about a girl saving the world... (and the movie made from it) (ETA: it is not prequel of the Never-ending story, but the precedent book by the same author; Michael Ende).

The heroin of Inkheart is a girl.
ETA: Another book and television series about a girl leading a group: Die rote Zora und ihre Bande. (Red Zora and her gang). The book is from the 1940ies.

But anyway, it never bothered me when it was not the case.

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Last edited by Nin on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:40 pm 
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As has become my habit, I went back to the deletion discussion and read it again. This helps me know what to post, and what not to.

:)

For here, then, I will only say that I am not editing anything (I am not saying that more female leads is a bad thing, or an unwelcome thing, I was simply commenting on a trend I thought I saw), but I am not cutting and pasting anything, either. I wrote what I wrote; it was a passing observation.

And I enjoyed reading Nin's post.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:45 pm 
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I certainly didn't think you were judging anything, Anthy. It's an observation and an interesting one--how far is the pendulum likely to swing, and for how long? I'm cynical on that point.

Nin, Astrid Lindgren's Pippi Longstocking books were very popular in the U.S. when I was a child. I loved them. A girl with super strength with no mother and a largely absent father who lived in a house by herself with a horse that lived indoors. And did exactly what she wanted, bringing her two young neighbors into her adventures. Positively subversive! :D

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:43 pm 
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I used to think I didn't mind, either. I used to wonder why the people on the Internet were so bothered. Then I realized a few things.

One, that I did grow up with female characters who were central to the story, strived for things other than romance, and did not have to conform to the stereotypically male behavior in order to be interesting. (Translation, the choices were not only a passive flower or a kickass warrior.) Soviet culture was full of them, from fairy tales to science fiction, and sexism took a subtly different form.

Two, that despite thing one, I also adored the Western fiction, in which men had adventures because they wanted to and women were basically flowers (with exceptions. I was surprised how little Mayne Reid is known here when he was wildly popular in the USSR), and in those stories I never identified with women.

Three, that I am bewildered of the constant repetition of how women are taught to be self-effacing and altruistic, always putting others first*. I never was. I was taught to do the right thing, to do my duty, and that means stepping forward, not back, and making myself bigger, not smaller. A lot of that were my parents, but I was never slapped down by school, or at least not any more than a boy.

And I wonder how much thing three has to do with things one and two.

* It is NOT remotely true that American women all ARE self-effacing flowers. The expectation seems to exist, though.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Frelga, at risk of sounding stereotypical, all the women I've come to know who emigrated from the USSR are remarkably strong women. Perhaps because they were allowed to be. :)

Anthy, I was not in any way trying to criticize you. I'm interested in a lively discussion of a complex subject. Yes, there are more strong, independent, female Disney leads, and that is a very good thing. I'd also like to real life and movies have strong, independent females throughout society. Sometimes sci fi leads by having the movies and books first, to inspire people in real life. Star Trek was certainly that way.

I've been a woman in a man's world all my life, as a civil engineer, and it's lonely here. And perplexingly lacking in role models.

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:47 pm 
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I never watched many Disney movies as a child. I watched them with my boys when they were little, mainly Winnie The Pooh and Toy Story. And I'm not a big sic-fi fan either.

But some more examples of the sci/fi field that came to my non-fan mind:
Alien. (Can there be a stronger women than Ripley?)
Contact - with Jodie Foster
The fifth element
More recent, but still: Gravity

What bothers me a lot more is that in order to be a lead, a woman has to be a "badass." I am quite "girly" and I'd love to see a movie in which a woman loves cooking, needlework and fashion and is still a strong character. Like "The Dressmaker". This one also has a woman whose love interest is visibly younger than herself. Watch it!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:24 am 
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The Dressmaker is one of the best (and quirkiest) films to come out of Oz in years! I absolutely adored it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Although the movie was crap compared to the series.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:29 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Ooooh, good one! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:31 pm 
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“So, why do you write these strong female characters?

Because you’re still asking me that question."

[Equality Now speech, May 15, 2006]”

― Joss Whedon

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:15 pm 
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There was Mr and Mrs Smith.
Not a great movie, but certainly Mrs Smith could smack down Mr.

The Colour Purple. Inner strength.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Milennium. Lisbeth is one hell of a strong woman.

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