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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
And other franchises, like Harry Potter (the new Fantastic Beasts) and Star Trek, have met with fair even if unexceptional reactions, but don’t seem to have antagonised the fanbase in the same way TLJ has done.


The last time I can remember the internet fanbase getting so angry about a movie was for that Ghostbusters reboot. I wonder what the two might have in common....

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:00 pm 
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What Al said.

Marvel does not have an iconic body of work that defined the genre to compare to the new movies. The ten years of the MCU *is* that iconic body of work. We'll see what happens when they unveil phase 4 after their most beloved heroes leave the stage in Avengers 4.

Harry Potter verse doesn't have this problem because it was always an inclusive world (with asterisks). "This problem" being a vocal group calling themselves real fans who feel personally attacked by stories where women and non-white characters take center stage and toxic masculinity is not rewarded. (Or in my personal terminology, where Frelga doesn't get the urge to slap the male lead in the face with a cast iron frying pan.) We'll see what happens if, as JKR implied, the next movie deals with a (past?) romantic relationship between Dumbledore and Grindelwald.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:47 pm 
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yovargas wrote:
Túrin Turambar wrote:
And other franchises, like Harry Potter (the new Fantastic Beasts) and Star Trek, have met with fair even if unexceptional reactions, but don’t seem to have antagonised the fanbase in the same way TLJ has done.


The last time I can remember the internet fanbase getting so angry about a movie was for that Ghostbusters reboot. I wonder what the two might have in common....


This this this this this. Harassing the actress who played Rose off the Internet. Yelling about too many key heroic
actions being carried out by women.

Plus many of the male fans hated Luke not being heroic throughout and battling the big boss in person.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
Túrin Turambar wrote:
Opposition to TLJ seems to have united most of the fandom, but among non-fans, the reaction has been the opposite – most casual viewers like the film.


That's because the people who oppose it consider themselves the real fans and people who like it are obviously just "casual viewers", cause obviously "real fans" know better. ;)

I'm a longtime fan of the movies, books, games etc. I loved it. So there ya go.


I should clarify that there are serious fans of the series dating back to 1977 who did really like The Last Jedi. But from the fandom channels I’m following they’re a minority, in my experience an even smaller minority among vocal fans than the defenders of the Prequels.

Frelga wrote:
What Al said.

Marvel does not have an iconic body of work that defined the genre to compare to the new movies. The ten years of the MCU *is* that iconic body of work. We'll see what happens when they unveil phase 4 after their most beloved heroes leave the stage in Avengers 4.

Harry Potter verse doesn't have this problem because it was always an inclusive world (with asterisks). "This problem" being a vocal group calling themselves real fans who feel personally attacked by stories where women and non-white characters take center stage and toxic masculinity is not rewarded. (Or in my personal terminology, where Frelga doesn't get the urge to slap the male lead in the face with a cast iron frying pan.) We'll see what happens if, as JKR implied, the next movie deals with a (past?) romantic relationship between Dumbledore and Grindelwald.


I’m not sure on what basis Harry Potter is a more inclusive franchise than Star Wars. The original series, even forty years ago, still had women in authority figures (including the actual leader of the Rebellion), and the Prequels were even more diverse. If the fans who don’t like TLJ are only upset by Rey, Rose, and Holdo, then you need to wonder why they were OK with Leia, Mon Mothma, Lando, Mace Windu, and Padme. The Harry Potter franchise has more women and non-white characters, but then, it has many more characters generally.

This goes back to the point I made earlier – I think it would be most unwise for Lucasfilm to brush off the fan reaction to TLJ as being driven principally by racism, sexism, or Russian bots (even though those all played a part in the internet backlash).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:11 am 
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The difference with Harry Potter is in the "toxic masculinity is not rewarded" part. Sure, in the original movies, Leia is a military leader, and a princess, and a few other things, but Han is disrespectful and domineering towards her, and she *still* ends up with him. And there's nothing comparable to the bikini sequence in Harry Potter.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:19 am 
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Those are fair criticisms of the Original Trilogy, although I'd still argue they made a massive step forward from the conventional 1950s and 1960s pulp Sci-Fi tropes of damsels in distress and sexy green aliens. But I'm not sure if they hold up so well for the Prequels, although the romantic dialogue is so terribly-written it's hard to judge it by the standards of normal human behaviour. More seriously, I don't see how the criticism holds up at all for The Force Awakens and Rogue One, neither of which attracted anything like the same levels of fan criticism as The Last Jedi (Rogue One was quite well-received by fans). Nor has it attracted to other Fantasy or Sci-Fi franchises like the Hunger Games, with a well-drawn female protagonist and many of the same fans as Star Wars and Harry Potter.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:37 am 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
This goes back to the point I made earlier – I think it would be most unwise for Lucasfilm to brush off the fan reaction to TLJ as being driven principally by racism, sexism, or Russian bots (even though those all played a part in the internet backlash).


This is true of course to a large degree. The movie had plenty of flaws and plenty of very level-headed, reasonable persons can dislike it for level-headed, reasonable reasons. My problem though is that the internet fanboy reaction wasn't simply a "man, that movie wasn't very good" kind of reaction. Too much of the reaction was, and remains, one of heated, intense, passionate anger.

That kind of anger that doesn't get stirred up merely because the movie is not good or you did not like the direction it went. There are plenty of examples of beloved franchises with bad movies or reboots,but they don't usually get the internet worked up into such a hateful mood. Compare, for example, the reaction to the not-well-received Hobbit movies - which I would argue were considerably worse than any of the new Star Wars movies - to what Last Jedi got. It just doesn't make sense for the intensity of the reaction, such as the absurdly low score that you originally posted, be based primarily on the actual quality of the movie. I wasn't joking when I said the last time I saw this kind of hate directed towards the movie was the Ghostbusters reboot. I don't think that is a coincidence.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:39 am 
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Possibly because both Harry Potter and Hunger Games verses began as beloved books that brought fans to the movies, so that particular segment of male audiences never considered those verses as "theirs."

As for TFA vs. TLJ, I don't know. Perhaps it's only the difference between 2015 and 2017. Online harassment has been escalating since at least 2014, but 2016 seems to stand out as the watershed, and also the year that bots became a force.

The linked article also comments that while the politics inside the movies have stayed almost identical to the original trilogy, the real world changed so that allusions read differently.

It is, of course, perfectly possible for a reasonable person to find something to dislike about any movie, but I can't see how TLJ can be objectively considered inferior to I - III.

X-posted with Yov.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:00 am 
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yovargas wrote:
Túrin Turambar wrote:
This goes back to the point I made earlier – I think it would be most unwise for Lucasfilm to brush off the fan reaction to TLJ as being driven principally by racism, sexism, or Russian bots (even though those all played a part in the internet backlash).


This is true of course to a large degree. The movie had plenty of flaws and plenty of very level-headed, reasonable persons can dislike it for level-headed, reasonable reasons. My problem though is that the internet fanboy reaction wasn't simply a "man, that movie wasn't very good" kind of reaction. Too much of the reaction was, and remains, one of heated, intense, passionate anger.

That kind of anger that doesn't get stirred up merely because the movie is not good or you did not like the direction it went. There are plenty of examples of beloved franchises with bad movies or reboots,but they don't usually get the internet worked up into such a hateful mood. Compare, for example, the reaction to the not-well-received Hobbit movies - which I would argue were considerably worse than any of the new Star Wars movies - to what Last Jedi got. It just doesn't make sense for the intensity of the reaction, such as the absurdly low score that you originally posted, be based primarily on the actual quality of the movie. I wasn't joking when I said the last time I saw this kind of hate directed towards the movie was the Ghostbusters reboot. I don't think that is a coincidence.


It's true there’s been an irrational backlash, which I think has a few reasons behind it – the proliferation of internet trolling through the anonymity of Twitter, the fact that the Star Wars fanbase includes quite a few not well socially-adjusted young men, and something of a feedback loop developing where everyone piles on.

But there’s also a difference between fans being disappointed in a poorly-done entry into a franchise and being angry and what they saw as active hostility on behalf of the people making the film. There were fans who were willing to forgive Lucas for incompetence who weren’t willing to forgive Johnson and Kennedy for (what they perceived as) malice.

It’s actually easy to see how this happened. One of the perfectly-justified criticisms of TFA was that it was too similar to previous films, notably ANH. Lucasfilm therefore decided to do something completely different with TLJ, and seem to have hired Johnson for this specific purpose. In retrospect, what I think they failed to realise is that the fans wanted a new plot, but they otherwise wanted the universe that plot played out in to be consistent with the one they knew and loved. It was this tearing up of the rulebook which seemed to have really needled the fans rather than just producing a weaker film.

Frelga wrote:
It is, of course, perfectly possible for a reasonable person to find something to dislike about any movie, but I can't see how TLJ can be objectively considered inferior to I - III.


Objectively I don’t think you can consider it inferior to I and II – it’s a much better-made film than both. Probably III as well, although that’s a closer call. On a personal level, I like Attack of Clones more than The Last Jedi, but I won’t try to argue that it’s a better film. The question in my mind which triggered this whole train of thought was how much a studio should prioritise making a polished film which entertains a broad audience vs one which appeals to hardcore fans of the franchise. A year ago I would have said that the former is far more important than the latter. Now, based on the box office performance of Solo and Disney's decision to cancel the other upcoming spin-offs, I’ve been having doubts, at least as far as a franchise with a broad and fanatical fanbase as Star Wars. But what is the magic formula? If anyone can figure that out, then most big studios would probably want to have a word with them.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:14 am 
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On a personal level, I like Attack of Clones more than The Last Jedi


And here I thought I was talking to a sane person.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:39 am 
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Solo is an interesting variable. I don't recall much angst being directed at it. In fact, while TLJ Rotten Tomato score is 91 critics / 45 audiences, Solo is 70/64. Yet the box office is less than a third of TLJ. That suggests that the studio will probably do OK ignoring the online angst.

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