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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:40 am 
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To me, Luke’s failure to re-launch the Jedi Order was one of those things that was built into the whole concept of an Episode VII set thirty years after Episode VI. And one of the reasons I was always suspicious about a Sequel trilogy (and still am, for that matter). So I couldn’t see any way that there’d be real drama in the new trilogy without something going really wrong from RotJ.

The villains I’m still not sold on, but we’ll see. Supreme Leader Snoke needs some good explanation.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:01 am 
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Even Darth Maul is better than Kylo. He may have had no character, but that's better than a failed attempt to give someone character.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:07 am 
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Failed, or incomplete (for story reasons)?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:33 am 
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As I said in my original comments, I think that on the reasons TFA suffers in the villain department because Star Wars films have traditionally had such strong villains. Darth Vader is probably the greatest film antagonist of all time. The way that the Emperor is subtly introduced as a half-seen menace before whom even Vader bows and humbles himself in The Empire Strikes Back is a master-stroke of film-making. Ian McDiarmid’s portrayal of the Emperor in real life gives Return of the Jedi practically all its best scenes, and is one of the redeeming features of the prequels. Boba Fett is very memorable given his short appearances and rightfully gained a huge fan following (although he went out so pathetically in Return of the Jedi – another of that film’s failings). Darth Maul isn’t a very interesting character, but he makes for a very intimidating villain and hasn’t been forgotten. Count Dooku, thanks largely to Christopher Lee, is also a solid antagonist with a hint of an interesting backstory. The TFA scriptwriters seemed pretty wedded to the Vader-Emperor dynamic, which might or might not work. I would have preferred them to strike out with something different, though.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:10 am 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
Failed, or incomplete (for story reasons)?


I can get that they purposely gave an incomplete picture for trilogy reasons, but the dealbreaker for me is his claiming to be conflicted, but not really doing any good things to back it up.

The mind trick with the restraints reminded me of Dune (remove my mother's gag - cut my son's bonds). Was it intentional? I want Dune movies again.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:36 am 
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I'd love to see another shot at Dune on the big screen, and I suppose it's possible that the massive success of the rebooted Stark Trek and new Star Wars trilogy might make it more likely. Not that David Lynch's take didn't lack for boldness and vision, but, yeah...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:05 pm 
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Yeah

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:54 pm 
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<OT>The TV versions of Dune and Children of Dune are far superior to the Lynch movie IMO, and tell the story pretty well for me. Sure, some of the effects are hokey, but overall they're a solid effort.</OT>

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:58 pm 
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I agree with most of the points this guy makes in this list of "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abra ... 50324.html


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:31 pm 
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Its funny isn't it. I don't necessarily disagree with any of his points, but I just don't care, cause I enjoyed the movie. When you don't enjoy a movie, these lists invariably validate your opinion, but when you enjoy it, the list feels kinda pointless, or even mean spirited. Its all about perspective. (To be clear, I'm not saying your opinion isn't a legitimate one Maria, just that these lists are always written for and approved of, by those who are predisposed to agree with them.)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:13 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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That's an odd response to the article considering it opens by saying they loved the movie, along with this pretty darn fair quote:
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Why can't we just admit that BB-8 is adorable, Finn is hilarious, Rey is badass, seeing Han and Chewie again was awesome, the special effects were tremendous, Poe is Soloesque, Kylo Ren is intriguing, and this movie makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?


(Okay, "no sense" is probably an exaggeration but there's quite a few headscratchers in the movie.)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:19 pm 
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I say it Christmas Eve. I liked it. Yeah, the storyline is really derivative, but I've been told Abrams did that on purpose, to assure fans they weren't going to get betrayed this time. Also, as for the patchiness in the story, the writers knew there'd be sequels, giving them time enough for backstory in coming movies. I think they overindulged in that freedom a bit but whatever. I had the fun I was looking for. And, when you think about it, there were hints. We know Rey was waiting for someone(s) to come get her and she'd been waiting since she was a small child. This is why she was so desperate to get back to Jakku after it was established that BB-8 was on its way back to the Resistance. She was afraid her people would come for her and not find her. In fact, I suspect that's why she hung on so hard to that desolate spot on the planet rather than take her obviously resourceful self off to greener pastures. Once she realizes there's no going back, her story takes off. And I strongly suspect that if she isn't Skywalker lineage she had some connection to the failed Jedi school. A survivor who was hidden. Her latent force abilities seem a little too refined for her to just be really talented. She may have blocked it all from her memory, but the block is failing.

Finn was born a cog in a machine. He didn't even have anything recognizable as a name until Poe was all like, "Yeah, no, I'm just going to call you Finn." Ultimately, though, he didn't fit in with that machine. So he made a decision and got himself entangled in events. And, having absolutely no illusions about what he's up against, he just wanted to get as far out of the First order's reach as possible. His story arc was the fun one for me, just because in all the previous iterations of Star Wars the stormtroopers were almost completely dehumanized. Here, there are definitely people under the helmets, with friendships and second thoughts and all that.

The whole First Order vs. Resistance that's backed by the Republic is where I start getting confused. My thinking is the First Order has claimed territory and the Resistance is a partisan movement within that territory and the Republic is backing them up, but I can't actually substantiate it with anything. It's a weakness that irritated me but completely and totally frustrated my parents (the nerd runs strong in my family).

Overall, it's the best Star Wars movie since 1983. Maybe even 1980.

BTW, anyone else notice that the beam quality of Ren's saber is total crap compared to his grandfather's weapon? And wasn't that force-frozen blaster bolt kind of cool?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:39 pm 
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River wrote:
And wasn't that force-frozen blaster bolt kind of cool?
Eeeh. All Vader could do when shot was to let the bolts bounce off his glove with a Force... field :P (if it wasn't just armored). The Emperor himself couldn't do such a thing.

It is sort of unsettling that the most powerful Force user in history is such a weak villain.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:18 pm 
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I'm not sure if Vader couldn't or just didn't. He may have been above such party tricks.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:28 pm 
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Concerning Luke's failure to relaunch the Jedi order: To me it seems logical to a certain degree. He had to this ALONE. He was trained only late in his life ( in comparison to traditional Jedi training) and only a short time (still in comparison to traditional Jedi training). Actually, it would have been a miracle if he had succeeded. And I saw his retreat just as a way of limiting damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:12 am 
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I found the conceit of a dark acolyte tempted by the light and praying to be delivered from that temptation interesting. I'm sure it's been done before, but it was new to me.

The similarities to Ep4 didn't strike me as either lack of imagination or homage, but rather a conscious part of the universe's ersatz Easternism where the same cycles keep repeating themselves.

Having Ren be Han and Leia's daughter is the obvious answer, but maybe it's a little too obvious! And it seems strange that neither of them would have considered the possibility that she was their long-lost child once they learned where she came from. It's not as though these are the only two possibilities, but I'm thinking it's more likely she's related to Luke. She looks like him, and his theme played during some of her moments (but maybe that's just because his lightsaber was involved). Finn is another character about the same age who was snatched away from his family as a child, by the way. Seems to be a lot of that going around.

I was bothered by how quickly Finn got over life as a Stormtrooper too at first, but then I remembered how ludicrous pretty much every other part of the story is. :)

And I must confess that during the crucial scene, all I could think was "Snape kills Dumbledore!"


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:18 am 
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He's not tempted by the light, he just says he is.

Nin wrote:
Concerning Luke's failure to relaunch the Jedi order: To me it seems logical to a certain degree. He had to this ALONE. He was trained only late in his life ( in comparison to traditional Jedi training) and only a short time (still in comparison to traditional Jedi training). Actually, it would have been a miracle if he had succeeded. And I saw his retreat just as a way of limiting damage.

He was doing pretty well until the evil dei ex machina (Snoke and Ren) came and ruined it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:03 pm 
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Anduril wrote:
River wrote:
And wasn't that force-frozen blaster bolt kind of cool?
Eeeh. All Vader could do when shot was to let the bolts bounce off his glove with a Force... field :P (if it wasn't just armored). The Emperor himself couldn't do such a thing.

It is sort of unsettling that the most powerful Force user in history is such a weak villain.



You should try playing some of the games! At one point in The Force Unleashed, Vader's hidden protege (played by you) brings down a Star Destroyer...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:33 am 
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I saw I this afternoon. I watched a good part of it in 3D without 3D glasses, and was surprised at how little the blurriness affected my enjoyment. (Read my non-spoiler thread post if you want a good laugh at the comedy of errors involved in actually getting to the film, and finding my seat!)

Loved it. It is an old-fashioned action film: sit down, fasten your seatbelts and enjoy the ride! (Never mind the plot, action films traditionally have weak plots!) Harrison Ford was at his finest, which made it all the worse when he was killed. The film really took off for me when he and Chewie showed up. I loved every minute he was on the screen, and found myself ROTFLOL at some of his nods to the original films: "You've changed your hair" [to Leila] and "Is there a garbage chute around here? With a trash compactor?" were particularly good.

I loved the interplay between Finn and Poe and between Solo and Rey. It just felt so right! The only character that felt wrong was Kylo Ren. WHO were his parents again?? He doesn't look the slightest bit like either one! The Vader type voice is good, but when he took the helmet off, it was like "WHAT??" And this was even before it was revealed he was Han and Leila's son.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:22 am 
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I saw it today. Wow, the Internet was great about keeping the spoilers down.

It was the kind of high entertainment, low emotional investment movie I was hoping for. I appreciated the lack of characters screaming "Noooo!" in slow motion You Know When but it seemed like there was no payoff at all. Everyone seemed mildly annoyed at most.

I did miss the first fifteen minutes because the last trailer before the movie was for Civil War and it took me that long to recover.

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