Discussion about great films

Discussion of performing arts, including theatre, film, television, and music.
Passdagas the Brown
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Perhaps the difference between our views is that I am more than willing to "settle" at this point in my life and be very thankful for what I get rather than perfection which I no longer expect from anything.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, sf. My standards for film - particularly for films of my favorite books - are very high. For these films, I thought that nothing short of film masterpieces ala Lawrence of Arabia were warranted. This is exacerbated by the fact that I am aware of many great directors that I believe could have made a much better adaptation, and much better films. It's this opportunity lost that frustrates me.

But what leavens this frustration for me is that there are some scenes "shot through" PJ's canvas, which are wonderful and sometimes sublime. The FOTR prologue, the early scenes of Gandalf's cart shambling through the Shire, the reveal of Dwarrowdelf, Boromir's death, Frodo and Sam looking out over the Emyn Muil, Gandalf and the Balrog's plunge into the depths of Moria with that exquisite long shot of the deep lake, the Rohirrim on the plain, Éomer's confrontation with the three hunters, the glorious image of Meduseld, Theodred's funeral (my absolute favorite), Théoden lamenting at Theodred's grave as the sun begins to set, Gollum's end-of-TTT monologue, the lighting of the beacons (perfect), Gandalf riding out onto the Pelennor to drive away the Nazgûl with a shaft of white light (my single favorite shot across all three films), the eerily august glow as the forces of Mordor make their way into the outer rings of Minas Tirith killing as they go, the elemental beauty of Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Mt. Doom as a rain of fire descends in the background, the look on the faces of the fellowship as they realize Sauron has fallen, but also that Frodo and Sam have likely been sacrificed, the sublime flight of the eagles, the perfect "good morning" scene, Thranduil on a massive elk (love that touch), Bilbo's hilarious overly-polite attempts at managing the dwarves, the Battle of Azanulbizar (possibly my favorite "battle" across all four films), and again, the eagle rescue, with that gorgeous long shot of them flying over the hills, and finally, that wonderful lingering shot of the thrush flying toward the mountain, and then tapping snails against the rock.

These are all great moments, and some of them are my favorite moments in cinema. So I am grateful for that.

But because they are overwhelmed by so much other stuff that I dislike, it is hard for me to watch the films again and again, as I read the books again and again. Essentially, I do a lot of fast-forwarding!

In any event, to perhaps ironically quote Faramir in Osgiliath, "I think at last we understand each other."

This is really what it's all about. I love the books, and I love film, and I have perhaps impossibly high standards for what a film of those books should be. Not everyone carries that ridiculous burden! :)

Best,
PtB
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

Thank you for explaining that. Anybody that loves film and mentions LAWRENCE can't be bad.

So what would be your favorite films outside of LAWRENCE?
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

For these films, I thought that nothing short of film masterpieces ala Lawrence of Arabia were warranted.
So you wanted a really dull, slow movie with lots of pictures of sand? Weird, and all this time I thought you wanted a good movie.....


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Passdagas the Brown
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

That's a good (and difficult) question! Let me try to pick out the most recognizable ones, though I will undoubtedly miss a few gems:

Lawrence of Arabia
2001: A Space Odyssey
Apocalypse Now
Army of Shadows (Melville)
The Big Lebowski
Bladerunner
Patton
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Children of Men
Tree of Life
There Will Be Blood
The African Queen
Harvey
Bridge Over the River Kwai
The original Star Wars trilogy
The Godfather I and II
Fargo
Gandhi (Ben Kingsley)
The Shining
To Kill a Mockingbird
Waterloo (little known film about Napoleon shot in Russia)
Gravity
Boogie Nights
Richard III (with Ian McKellen and Robert Downey Jr.!)
Magnolia
Indian Runner
Kingdom of Heaven (extended cut - the theatrical is almost unwatchable)
It's a Wonderful Life!
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

A civil and interesting discussion seems to have broken out here. :nono: Perhaps it needs to be moved. . . .
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Elentári
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Post by Elentári »

My thoughts exactly, Prim...some great posts, gentlemen, which I think could be of value actually in the movie forum.

I have struggled with my feelings towards this HOBBIT trilogy so far...I want to be like sf and Alatar, and be able to ignore the parts that rile me....but we all have different tolerance levels, particularly when it comes to subject matter dear to us. Some of us can let the bad stuff go over our heads, whilst for others it eats away at us. It's simply down to our individual personalities, I guess. For me it is strange because I did not have these issues with LotR and I went into AUJ with high-ish hopes. I don't know whether those expectations were simply too high, as PtB would probably claim, or whether I am simply in a different place in my life and outlook to 12 years ago...but I am clearly one of many people who have been disappointed and surprised at the change of direction Jackson has taken with this second trilogy for whatever reason. As PtB has just pointed out, what makes it particularly hard for some of us it that Jackson frequently knocks the ball out of the park in many instances, but is equally capable of stunning us with a curveball...


It is good to read that there is common ground on dislikes between those who wish to be positive most of the time and those who wish to discuss perceived failings in minutiae, since in other places those who love the films do tend to give the impression that Jackson could serve up anything dressed up as Middle-earth fare and they would find it palatable. I know that is not the case here, at least. None of us enjoy complaining for the sake of it, I'm sure...for me, at least, it somehow eases the pain if I can discuss what I perceive to be a missed opportunity in a scene, and look at alternativesd
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:That's a good (and difficult) question! Let me try to pick out the most recognizable ones, though I will undoubtedly miss a few gems:

Lawrence of Arabia
2001: A Space Odyssey
Apocalypse Now
Army of Shadows (Melville)
The Big Lebowski
Bladerunner
Patton
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Children of Men
Tree of Life
There Will Be Blood
The African Queen
Harvey
The original Star Wars trilogy
The Godfather I and II
Fargo
The Shining
To Kill a Mockingbird
Waterloo (little known film about Napoleon shot in Russia)
Gravity
Boogie Nights
Richard III (with Ian McKellen and Robert Downey Jr.!)
Magnolia
Kingdom of Heaven (extended cut - the theatrical is almost unwatchable)
It's a Wonderful Life!
Thats a pretty good list. I would include several of yours on my all time favorites:

Lawrence of Arabia
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
The African Queen
The Godfather I and II
To Kill a Mockingbird
Waterloo
It's a Wonderful Life

and I would add

Intolerance
Metropolis
City Lights
Mr. Smith Goes To Washington
Best Years of Our Lives
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Elephant Man
Blazing Saddles
Elmer Gantry
Citizen Kane
High Noon
On The Waterfront
Deerhunter
Graduate
Wizard of Oz
Close Encoutners of the Third Kind
Jaws
Saving Private Ryan
West Side Story
Schindlers List
Duck Soup
Absence of Malice
Hoosiers
Planes, trains and Automobiles
Pinocchio
King Kong (original)
Paths of Glory
Raiders of the Lost Ark
Miracle at Morgans Creek
Miracle Worker


and the best from the recent century LOTR trilogy.

Its good we do have some in common.

I am impressed you have WATERLOO on your list. Abel Gance is a genius.
Are you familiar with the story of how he case the lead for the pic? Did you get to see it in the theater.... when they went to the triple screen it took my breath away.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
Passdagas the Brown
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

yovargas wrote:
For these films, I thought that nothing short of film masterpieces ala Lawrence of Arabia were warranted.
So you wanted a really dull, slow movie with lots of pictures of sand? Weird, and all this time I thought you wanted a good movie.....


*runs for cover*
No need to run! I'll just make believe you didn't say anything. :)
Passdagas the Brown
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

sf,

Oh, you have some on your list that are also among my top favorites. In particular:

Metropolis
Mr. Smith Goes To Washington
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Elephant Man
Citizen Kane
High Noon
On The Waterfront
Deerhunter
The Graduate
Jaws
Saving Private Ryan (just the beginning, to be honest!)
King Kong (original)
Raiders of the Lost Ark

I also forgot the mention most Sergio Leone films. Yes, "western" purists don't appreciate his spaghetti-western style, but I still think he was a cinematic genius (and appreciate some of Tarantino's work largely because of how much he imitates him!).

I'd also add most films involving Clint Eastwood, even though I'm not a huge fan of his politics.

Abel Gance is indeed a genius, and I am very familiar with the story of that film. But alas, I didn't get to see it on the big screen! I am very jealous that you did...

I have, however, seen Lawrence of Arabia on the big screen twice. No matter what yovargas says, that's as close to heaven as one can get!
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sauronsfinger
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Post by sauronsfinger »

and I am sure we both made the name error - we are talking about the 1927 NAPOLEON right?

Just like you I have seen the glorious LAWRENCE twice on the big screen. the first time was just after it won Best Film and it left the downtown Detroit theaters and came out to the suburbs. I was just 13 and we went to the movies every week no matter what was playing. There was a line around the theater and we waited in it. I will never forget as the owner of the theater came through the line and apologized to the people because he had to raise the admission price to $1.50 to get the film.

It was amazing.

btw - I too really like lots of Eastwood films and my politics are the opposite of his also. This is getting weird! :shock:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Post by kzer_za »

I got to see Lawrence, Jaws, Raiders, To Kill a Mockingbird and On the Waterfront on the big screen all in the past year. Good stuff! I've seen at least two-thirds of the movies mentioned here (probably more) and like most of them. Perhaps I will post more later when I have time.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Tree of Life
The middle portion of this, where we follow the young kids coming of age, is some of the very, very best film-making I've ever seen. The stuff before and after that, however, is silly dreck. Very pretty silly dreck but dreck nonetheless. A masterpiece stuck in the middle of a hallmark card. IMO of course! :D


Of those mentioned I'll add my support to:
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Shining (really most of Kubrick)
Apocalypse Now
The Big Lebowski
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Children of Men
There Will Be Blood
LOTR


And add from my own favorites:
Do The Right Thing (the most wildly under-rated movie ever; an absolute masterpiece)
Mulholland Dr. (possibly my favorite movie)
Most Pixar movies
8 1/2
Casablanca
A Separation
Batman Begins/Dark Knight
The Matrix
Harold & Maude
Kill Bill pt. 1
Snatch
Adaptation
Synecdoche, New York
Brazil
A Streetcar Named Desire
City of God
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I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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Passdagas the Brown
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Yes, sf, I did mean to say Napoleon! So we agree on a lot of films, have both seen Lawrence on the big screen twice, and made the same mistake naming Gance's film? This is getting VERY weird!
The middle portion of this, where we follow the young kids coming of age, is some of the very, very best film-making I've ever seen.
yov, I agree that it's the best part of the film. And the best section of a film I have ever seen. In that sense, I think Malick sits on some kind of superhuman plain. To paraphrase Samwise Gamgee, his films are above my likes and dislikes, so to speak.

Though I don't think the rest of Tree of Life is dreck (not as good, but not dreck). There's an insane, naive, honest, pure unfiltered madness about it all that I find appealing. Also, if you think of all of it as a medication, or "prayer" on the anniversary of Penn's brother's death. then it all makes a whole lot more sense. Essentially, the film is about a character (Penn) coping with the untimely death of his brother on the anniversary of his death, and he does that by...putting everything in context of the universe. Yes, I can see how it can be seen as overwrought. But having lost someone in an untimely way, I know what those anniversaries are like. So it worked for me, and I was in awe of most of it. I didn't watch it like a normal film - I sort of just let it wash over me like old memories of loved ones. In short, it's a very, very personal film for me. So personal that I can't talk about it with people who hated it! Just can't do it.

Which reminds me that I forgot to put Thin Red Line on my list.

Great titles you mentioned, and as an Italian, I cannot be forgiven for omitting Fellini! But my absolute favorite of his is I Vitelloni. The essence of their national character is in that film. Of the others on your list, I love:

Do The Right Thing (though I don't think critics underrate it! It's high on a lot of lists)
Batman Begins/Dark Knight
Kill Bill pt. 1 AND 2 (though I prefer Inglorious Basterds and Django)
Brazil (how could I forget???)
A Streetcar Named Desire
City of God (one of the most shattering films I've ever seen)

I made three huge omissions to my list: Taxi Driver. Scorcese never made anything better. And Miyazaki's Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle.

ETA: Sorry yov, but Pixar has nothing on Studio Ghibli! ;)
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Post by Elentári »

I'm a sucker for epics like LAWRENCE, DR ZHIVAGO, RYAN'S DAUGHTER...

I like anything that grabs me emotionally and gives me a lump in my throat - three of my favourites that are all set in the far east and are linked by certain actors (Michelle Yeoh, Chow Yun Fat): CROUCHNG TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON, MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA, and the Jodie Foster remake of THE KING AND I

Another favourite is DANGEROUS LIAISONS...
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Has anyone seen A Separation? It won the Oscar for Best Foreign Film last year. It is an absolutely remarkable movie. I honestly think I would put it amongst the 10 best movies of ever seen. I very highly recommend it.

(here's a trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Onuy5USTc)
Though I don't think the rest of Tree of Life is dreck (not as good, but not dreck). There's an insane, naive, honest, pure unfiltered madness about it all that I find appealing. Also, if you think of all of it as a medication, or "prayer" on the anniversary of Penn's brother's death. then it all makes a whole lot more sense. Essentially, the film is about a character (Penn) coping with the untimely death of his brother on the anniversary of his death, and he does that by...putting everything in context of the universe. Yes, I can see how it can be seen as overwrought. But having lost someone in an untimely way, I know what those anniversaries are like. So it worked for me, and I was in awe of most of it. I didn't watch it like a normal film - I sort of just let it wash over me like old memories of loved ones. In short, it's a very, very personal film for me. So personal that I can't talk about it with people who hated it! Just can't do it.

Which reminds me that I forgot to put Thin Red Line on my list.
Well, silly dreck was maybe a bit of an overstatement but I have the exact same problem I had with those sections that I had with the Thin Red Line: those damn voiceovers. Clearly he thinks he has some powerfully meaningful things to communicate, and his gorgeous images do communicate quite a bit, but lord the words that he makes people say! To me it comes off as the the silliest of dime store philosophising, the kind of "deep" stuff stoned college kids come up with. There are so many many of those voiceover lines in both TLR and TOL that make me :roll: :roll: :roll: . I wish he would let the poetry of the images speak for themselves because I find the faux-profundity of his words hard to bear.

But damn, when I watched the Tree of life the second time, I thought that that middle section on childhood, if it had been it's own standalone movie, it might very well be my favorite movie ever. It's absolutely glorious. :bow:
Great titles you mentioned, and as an Italian, I cannot be forgiven for omitting Fellini!
And I cannot be forgiven for only having watched the masterpiece that is 8 1/2! A flaw I should work to correct very soon...
Do The Right Thing (though I don't think critics underrate it! It's high on a lot of lists)
I say underrated but because I think it belongs in the very upper upper upper echelon when discussing great films. If you could show Do The Right Thing and Citizen Kane to a crowd of film lovers that had somehow never heard of either, there's no way it at Citizen Kane is getting voted as the better film. (But then, I have a grudge against Citizen Kane, a movie whose massive historical significance has totally overshadowed the fact that not that many people actually enjoy sitting through it...) (And it also irritates me that lists of "film canon" always put so much emphasis on older movies like if hardly anything worthwhile has happened in my lifetime.)
Kill Bill pt. 1 AND 2 (though I prefer Inglorious Basterds and Django)
I actually don't really like Tarantino. Mostly because the way his characters talk drives me nuts. I'm pretty sure the only a reason I like KB1 so much is because he keeps the chatter to a minimum. :D
ETA: Sorry yov, but Pixar has nothing on Studio Ghibli!
While there's no question that Ghibli's work is truly lovely....just no. :P IMO Spirited Away is the only Ghibli movie that can stand next to Pixar's parade of masterpieces. But: Spirited Away! :love: :love: :love:


And as a final note, I know that he's not to everyone's taste but Aranofsky (Black Swan, Pi, ect) is my favorite director working today. I am very much hoping that his upcoming take on the Biblical Noah ends up a success!

Film talk, woo!
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Post by narya »

I won't repeat the others on the list, many of which I'd second, but I'll just mention a few that I enjoy watching over and over again. Maybe not great cinema, but no one has ever accused me of having discriminating taste.

King of Hearts
Flash Gordon (mainly for the soundtrack by Queen)
Charade
Gone with the Wind
Pi
Space Balls


I'm sure I'll think of more later.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

Space Balls but no Monty Python? :P
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Passdagas the Brown
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

yov,

Agreed about a lot of the voice overs. But I justify those away because they're not dialogue. They're essentially just a stream of thoughts, and thoughts can often sound more stonerish than words! But still, I do think his films would be better received, including by me, if that was kept to a minimum. But it depends. If characters are trying to make peace with the untimely death of a loved one, then I forgive them their incoherent philosophizing! And I just don't approach Malick analytically. Watching his films is more like sitting on a beach at sunset, and watching and listening to the waves rushing back and forth. Like watching memories as opposed to a film. Sounds a tad pretentious, but it's not. The opposite, really. Like you're forced to be as naive as a child again, seeing and hearing things for the first time.

Agreed on Do the Right Thing. A masterpiece.

I also appreciate Aronofsky - even the Fountain, which most critics hated. But there are personal reasons behind that too! And what did you think of Requiem for a Dream?

Let me add Werner Herzog's 'Happy People: Life on the Taiga." His best by far. And why have I omitted Monty Python's various offerings? The Holy Grail is the front runner, though I love all of it.

And I can't agree on Pixar! Just too cute, IMO. I enjoy a lot if them, and think they're pretty funny, but I can't say I love any of them. Miyazaki, on the other hand, I treat as if he was a live action filmmaker. Such powerful images.

Narya,

How could I forget Space Balls? Use the Schwartz! Always good to have Mel Brooks in a movie.
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Post by sauronsfinger »

Regarding DO THE RIGHT THING and CITIZEN KANE.

I agree that this Spike Lee film is a wonderful and very much worth watching. Like all Spike Lee films, there are moments of sheer brilliance and then others when you wonder what the heck he had in mind. MALCOLM is like that with the absolutely stunning sequence of him driving to his death with Sam Cooke on the radio singing "Change is Gonna Come". That is one of my favorite moments in all film.

I took a film class in college and we were shown KANE and read the Pauline Kael essay about it. In order to appreciate it you have to first be educated to what film was about before KANE and especially how the camera was used very differently than most films before KANE.

Does anybody out there like one of the most reviled films in all history - HEAVEN'S GATE? I just cannot keep my eyes off the screen when it is on and I adore the final battle sequence which I think is a microcosm for class struggle in America captured perfectly and maybe better than anyone has ever done it.

yovargas - SNATCH is a very good film and I am happy to see it on your list. It has a feel all its own much like TAXI DRIVER did at the time.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Post by yovargas »

And what did you think of Requiem for a Dream?
I think it's a crazy, bold, intense, unforgettable movie. I also think that I'll almost certainly never watch it again cuz who could bear that twice? Just thinking about "the red dress" still gives me shivers. But anyone who can wring so much power from his images damn sure knows how to make a movie!
I took a film class in college and we were shown KANE and read the Pauline Kael essay about it. In order to appreciate it you have to first be educated to what film was about before KANE and especially how the camera was used very differently than most films before KANE.
As I said - "a movie whose massive historical significance has totally overshadowed the fact that not that many people actually enjoy sitting through it". Kane is the "eat your broccoli, it's good for you" of the film world.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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