BBC's Sherlock

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Agreed. It just seemed a bit lazily executed in S3.

I'm not as smart as you are, so things like that don't bother me as much. I found the characters at least as interesting if not more than in the previous seasons, and the episodes at least as interesting and entertaining. That's good enough for me.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Nothing to do with intelligence at all (and I object - you are smarter than I am!) I just don't like the hyper-modern style that involves rapid fire information sharing and characters talking over each other disguised as wit. Season 3 just had a little too much of that, I felt.

However, don't get me wrong. I still think Sherlock is still one of the best shows on TV!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, it is virtually the only show that I have watched for the past quarter of a century, so I am not in a position to judge. Nonetheless, I'm glad that I have watched, and will definitely seek it out when it continues in a couple of years.

[Passdagas the Brown]

If you enjoyed Sherlock, you'll love Battlestar Galactica and Games of Thrones!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sorry, but there is no way that I would like Game of Thrones, no matter how "well done" it is. I have no interest whatsoever.

[Elentári]

I've never seen an episode of GoT (apart from some clips from the very first one) and I don't particularly plan to, either. I did see some of Battlestar Galactica as my husband followed the series, but I never got into it....

I did enjoy Babylon 5 immensely, though!

[Passdagas the Brown]

Frankly, I didn't think the books were anything special (though they are generally entertaining). But I was pleasantly surprised by the show. Not sure how you can be so sure that you'll dislike it without having seen even one second of it. It has excellent characters, and I'm still holding out hope that the good guys win!

Think of it as LOTR in reverse. At the start of GoT, the faery world has faded into memory. As the series progresses, that world starts to return. As if the elves were coming back to Middle Earth, rather than leaving it. Westeros is essentially a 4th Age Middle Earth where deplorable human beings seem to thrive, and the honorable are snuffed out. But there are growing beacons of hope shot through (Bran's story, for example), and the legacy of the noble may ultimately prevail in the long run.

Despite GRRM being a far inferior writer to Tolkien, he seems to understand the nature of faery, and how it has been nearly extinguished in the modern world. There are some good Tolkienian lessons in this show, and it's a great holdover until someone else adapts Tolkien.

You don't have to take my word for it, but I like to think that you value my opinion from time to time.

-PtB
P.S. Oh, and...Sherlock! Sorry, forgot what thread this was.

[Alatar]

Elen, I'm a huge fan of Babylon 5, and I think Galactica and Game of Thrones are as good or better.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

PtB, I don't doubt your word (plus, my mother thinks GoT is the best thing on television currently, and that is as close to an objective fact as a subjective opinion can be, as far as I am concerned).

Um, Sherlock and John. And Mary. And Mrs. Watson.

[yovargas]

If you enjoyed Sherlock, you'll love Battlestar Galactica and Games of Thrones!

From what I know of V-man, I very much doubt that he would much tolerate all the gratuitous sex and violence in GoT nor the generally cynical and un-hopeful view of human nature. He can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, that pretty much says it about as well as it can be said. Thanks, Yov.

(Moriarty? Magnussen?)

[Smaug's voice]

No, that pretty much says it about as well as it can be said.

And that goes for me as well.

[yovargas]

While for me, the ridiculously OTT gratuitous Spartacus is some of the most fun I've ever had with a TV show.

[Passdagas the Brown]

If you enjoyed Sherlock, you'll love Battlestar Galactica and Games of Thrones!

From what I know of V-man, I very much doubt that he would much tolerate all the gratuitous sex and violence in GoT nor the generally cynical and un-hopeful view of human nature. He can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

I just don't think that's an accurate description of the show.

1. Someone recently conducted a short study showing that GoT has the least amount of nudity of all current TV shows that allow nudity. When it's gratuitous, it annoys me too. But there's little enough of it to dismiss.

2. I don't believe it necessarily has a cynical message because the story isn't over yet. We have hopeful signs from Bran, Daenerys, Sansa and Jon Snow, for example.

If indeed it all ends with the worst people on top, and the message being "only the vicious and cruel survive," I may ultimately dismiss it (as I fundamentally believe that isn't actually true - at least not in today's world).

But I believe there are good and honorable characters left that are likely to succeed. And if not, I don't think that necessarily contradicts the view of someone like Tolkien.

The honorable don't do things because they will gain more power as a result. They do things because they are the right thing to do.

In many ways, Ned Stark is simply a harsher example of Frodo Baggins. One

Hidden text.

got his head chopped off

for his humility and his rejection of evil pathways to power, and the other was wounded in a different way for that same commitment - shunned in his own community (the Shire) and ultimately forced to leave his home for a death across the sea.

And in the end, as a Catholic that is sympathetic to the medieval concept of the "long defeat," is Tolkien's view of human nature very different? After all, Frodo seized the Ring for himself. It was the mercy of a different hobbit, with a much lighter responsibility, that turned the hand of fate towards a victory for good, not Frodo.

My hope is that in Game of Thrones, the actions of the good will ultimately tip the scales, even if indirectly. And seeing as Martin's primary inspiration was Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings, I think he'll ultimately get there.

Oh, and John Watson!

[Primula Baggins]

My favorite joke in the season finale was

Hidden text.

"the elephant in the room" that turned out to be that time there was an elephant in a room.

Battlestar Galactica is brilliant, but just as bleak in its view of humanity as GoT. I was pulled through it by the writing and acting, but it was not always an easy thing to watch. In other words, I don't think Voronwë would like that show, either. I'm a little surprised that I did; I really do seek out stories that contain some hope—some way in which some good guys win at least something. The kind of story that at least pushes against the general bleak trend that prevails in art and entertainment today.

[Smaug's voice]

My favorite joke in the season finale was

Hidden text.

"the
elephant in the room" that turned out to be that time there was an
elephant in a room.

yes!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It was the mercy of a different hobbit, with a much lighter responsibility, that turned the hand of fate towards a victory for good, not Frodo.

Bilbo's mercy -- or pity, which really is the correct term -- certainly set the tone and helped rule the fate of many (and was captured extraordinarily well by Martin Freeman and the filmmakers that you hate). However, I would argue that it was Frodo's own pity that he showed to Gollum that truly turned the hand of fate towards a victory for good, despite his own inevitable succumbing to the power of the Ring (and sadly was not captured nearly as well by Elijah Wood and the filmmakers that you hate).

(Um, Lestrade?)

[Passdagas the Brown]

As bleak as Galactica could be, the outcome of the whole story seemed quite hopeful. Differences were worked out, and the good guys and bots on both sides won!

I think...

[Passdagas the Brown]

V,

I agree. Though I do believe Tolkien believed that human nature was ultimately incapable of handling great power without being corrupted. Even Frodo could not resist the wraithing process that Tolkien perceived among 20th century leaders. He seized the Ring, and could never have destroyed it through his own free will.

Only previous acts of pity indirectly bent the hand of fate towards a good outcome. That's still a rather pessimistic view of human nature, and is reinforced by Tolkien's aborted 4th Age account.

Ultimately, Tolkien's view of human nature is rather similar to GRR Martin's. It's just that Tolkien charts the early days of man, and the ancient beginnings of man's moral failings (Túrin, Ar Pharazon, Denethor) while GRRM's story takes place in a later, far more "fallen" world of men.

[Passdagas the Brown]

And Cumberbatch.