Winter is Coming: A Game of Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by **River** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Okay. If you've never read the books and you aren't caught up on the show, my post was a spoiler. But if that's the case I'd have to ask what you're even doing in this thread!

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:16 pm

Well, some people (like JewelSong) have not yet gotten around to watching all four seasons, but might want to discuss what they've seen so far. So it's probably safest for us to put spoiler tags on everything!

Post by **River** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:38 pm

I adjusted the tags.

Hidden text.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:57 pm

How about if we edit the thread title to include "(spoilers for aired episodes)" and talk openly about those, but use spoiler tags for events, including book events, that haven't yet occurred in the series? Those are much less frequently mentioned anyway.

I say this as someone who has been hung up unwilling to watch the Red Wedding for a year, and finally got through it a couple of nights ago at my brother's urging. Now I should be able to catch up, but I'm not worried about spoilers for episodes I personally haven't seen yet. Like a lot of us, I think, I'd rather see a lively discussion and risk the occasional spoiler.

Post by **Alatar** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:12 am

As long as book spoilers are clearly marked I'm ok with everything else. As I said, this is my hangup and I'll just stay out of the thread if people want to discuss book stuff.

Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:15 am

River wrote:I adjusted the tags.

Hidden text.
Makes for a fabulous looking discussion, doesn't it?

Very post-modern!

Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:17 am

Primula Baggins wrote:How about if we edit the thread title to include "(spoilers for aired episodes)" and talk openly about those, but use spoiler tags for events, including book events, that haven't yet occurred in the series? Those are much less frequently mentioned anyway.

I say this as someone who has been hung up unwilling to watch the Red Wedding for a year, and finally got through it a couple of nights ago at my brother's urging. Now I should be able to catch up, but I'm not worried about spoilers for episodes I personally haven't seen yet. Like a lot of us, I think, I'd rather see a lively discussion and risk the occasional spoiler.

I like this workaround and support it fully. As we don't want to keep Alatar out of his own thread, let's hope he thinks it's a good idea too!

Post by **anthriel** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:32 am

Alatar wrote:Personally I would expect Book Spoilers to be marked as such. I stay out of here until I'm up to date with the TV series. It didn't occur to me that River's spoiler was a Book Spoiler until I had glanced at it.

Ah, that makes sense then. I was kinda wondering what you were on about.

Great idea, Primster! Although I am not in much danger of revealing book story line, since I seem to remember so little of it.

I know this is going to be heresy, but was anyone else a bit underwhelmed with Ygritte's death? I expected it, so maybe that was the problem for me. Or maybe I have cooled off on my empathy to her since she routinely has murdered so many innocents.

And her final sentence to Jon is the only time in this whole show that I kind of rolled my eyes, a little. I mean, really. Could it have been any more "poignant" a thing for her to say? Saw that one coming, yes I did.

On the other hand, I'm still not over the Viper's death.

That man was amazing.

Post by **WampusCat** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:05 am

I was not underwhelmed by Ygritte's death. The aura of regret and lost opportunities brought tears to my eyes. She and John were both so headstrong and true to their values -- that drew them together but also tore them apart. When she hesitated, John had such a look of hope and love on his face ... and even though I read the books, I couldn't help but hope that they would be able to overcome the violence between their clans, overcome their own betrayals. I hoped they could start anew. Yes, she was a killer, but ...

Oh well. The arrow of well-deserved justice trumps the hope of redemptive love.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:42 pm

Since Alatar has given his approval, I'll change the thread title.

Spoiler principles going forward:

• No spoiler tags are needed for any episode that has already aired, which as of this Sunday will be seasons 1 through 4 in the United States. Anyone behind on the aired episodes reads here at their own risk.

• Please use spoiler tags for discussing book characters or events that have not yet appeared in an aired episode.

Thanks.

Post by **JewelSong** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:46 pm

I've read all the books,but only seen Season One. But I don't care about spoilers. I just figure everyone dies at the end.

Post by **axordil** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:53 pm

JewelSong wrote:I've read all the books,but only seen Season One. But I don't care about spoilers. I just figure everyone dies at the end.

That's impossible. There won't be anyone left alive at the end to die. In fact, the last eighty pages of the last book will be empty, because the omniscient narrator was accidentally eviscerated by a giant's ingrown toenail.

Post by **Dave_LF** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:14 pm

You know; for all the talk about how kill-happy Martin is, the number of major character deaths really is not that high (so far) for something that is essentially one long pre-modern war story, especially considering how many pages there are in sum. But several of them are quite unexpected and violate expectations. I think that's the bigger offense in most readers' minds--not that he kills characters, but that he kills them the wrong way.

Post by **anthriel** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:43 pm

I saw the "after" interview on this episode, and the writers confess that they killed a couple of people that Martin had not. (Poor Pip! As if he wasn't cannon fodder from the beginning....)

Wampus, I understand your words, but... I dunno. I am as much of a romantic as anyone, and the your poetic note about arrow of justice vs. redemptive love is well written.

I probably should leave this thought alone... I knew others wouldn't agree. Let's just say I felt worse about Pip dying. He went to the Wall because someone important tried to take sexual advantage of him and he objected. He's just as dead as Ygritte, and there's no chance of him ever feeling redemptive love. Or any love at all, any more.

I'm glad Sam was with him.

Post by **Sunsilver** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:47 pm

Speaking of Martin killing off characters...

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:02 am

But he doesn't kill the red-shirts. He kills Captain f'ing Kirk! And in the first season of the Original Series!

Post by **WampusCat** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:35 am

Anthy, you are certainly welcome to your opinion! I only disagree because, well, on this point (and this point only) I disagree. Normally I might as well put ditto marks after all your posts.

Post by **Sunsilver** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:14 am

Good comparison, PDG!

Post by **anthriel** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:58 pm

Wampus:

It's just that by disagreeing with you, it looks like I am agreeing with the statement that "the arrow of well-deserved justice trumps the hope of redemptive love."

Which maybe I am. Which maybe disappoints that romantic part of me.

Many of these characters (jeez, all? I'll have to think about that) are killers. If Ygritte deserved that arrow, then (all?!) of them do. I know that to single her out as a murder incapable of redemption seems unfair, to a ludicrous degree.

I just don't feel like her chance at redemptive love should be given more of a romantic "soft focus" lens than say... the man she murdered as he was walking with his son, while discussing potatoes for dinner. Or that old man who did nothing more vile than raise horses for the "wrong" side. Or... you know, Pip.

I think I'm still trying to work out why her death felt different to me.

Post by **WampusCat** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:12 am

I see Ygritte as someone who is a killer but not cruel, someone who fights for her people but not for personal power. In Westeros, that's about as close to honorable and moral as any character is likely to get.

They're all killers and/or manipulators. The good ones do it for better reasons, and without gratuitous cruelty. By this measure, moral characters include Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth, both of whom killed when they saw it as right. Joffrey Baratheon and Ramsey Snow need not apply.