Modern Praise Music

[Alatar]

So, is it all generic rubbish, as Jewel would have us think? I disagree. I think there is a lot that is repetitive, and also much that is overproduced. Part of this I think is the temptation to create a hypnotic effect using large crowds and repetitive chanting. However, many of these songs, when stripped back to the basics, and sung for 2 minutes rather than 7 are very good songs. I personally prefer the simple guitar arrangements.

Discuss!

[yovargas]

Weeeell, in my admittedly limited experience, music that specifically markets itself as "Christian rock" - as opposed to just rock music that happens to have spiritual themes - has a sense of feeling sanitized to the point of (ironically) soullessness. Like if it has to be ultra-generic to make sure nobody could possibly be offended. But sometimes being so inoffensive gets to be offensive!!

I am open to being proved wrong, though.

[axordil]

I can think of any number of songs--good songs--NOT marketed as being Christian Rock that are definitely Rock and definitely written from a Christian world view. Much of U2 comes to mind.

A little farther afield--but not much--you get into the borders of gospel and blues. Johnny Cash did some so-so straightforward gospel songs, and some really good ones, and some that aren't as straightforward which are excellent.

To be good, really good, music--like any artistic endeavor--has to be emotionally honest and has to have some substance, some depth, some pain. The conflict, the struggle, doesn't have to be in your face, but it has to inform the whole project. It can't be just pretty arrangements and technically competent performance. That's Muzak, not music.

ETA--I have heard Christian Rock stations, and the cynical part of me thinks they're ALL marketing: that it's a self-contained production and promotion process, where musicians of middling talent produce songs of middling interest that don't challenge their listeners.

In this respect they aren't all that different from a lot of pop top 40 stations. To pick up on Alatar's point--if they were release in a format not quite as slick and homogenized, and cut to the length of a old gospel song, some of them would become much better simply by losing deadweight.

[Padme]

I have to agree about U2. I have always thought Bad was what God would sing to us.

I love Johnny's version of God Is Gonna Cut You Down.

Plus I really love Lifehouse Hanging by a Moment


But as for main stream praise music there isn't much I find too inspiring.

That said I do like the old hymns..i.e. I love Amazing Grace.

[Alatar]

Here's one I like by Aaron Schust. Its simple, not fussy, and builds nicely. Again, I'm linking to the guitar only version cause the full band homogenises it a little for me.

My Saviour, My God

If you don't want to listen to the intro and explanations, the full song starts about 4min 40s.

[Primula Baggins]

I'm on the worship and music committee at my church, helping choose the hymns month by month. We are always in the process of reading and discussing a book about worship, which is part of our meetings. We just picked this for our next one: One Step Closer: Why U2 Matters for Those Seeking God.

I no longer listen to much rock, not because I'm above it or don't enjoy it but because I have little chance to listen to music at all—I'm alone in the house with the dog, mostly, and have to be able to hear her if she asks to go out. (And when I'm with her, working in the kitchen say, I don't listen to rock because I CAN'T STAND radio with commercials.) So I work in silence. But I'm going to try to listen to U2 a little, and learn a little, when the opportunity arises. It means not listening to Bach for a few months, but oh well.

[yovargas]

Here's an artist, Sufjan Stevens, that has gained a broad fanbase and acclaim who explicitly deals with Christians themes without falling into the "for Christians only" niche:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGEMx3TKxNc

(the lyrics of the final verse kill me)

[JewelSong]

U2 is excellent and I agree about many of their songs being spiritually based. Plus, they are just a kick-ass band.

I also very much like Sufjan Stevens' music. I find it very personal and very...I don't know - delicate is a word that comes to mind. But his music is interesting and has something of his own spiritual journey woven into it.

But as for "mainstream" praise music...well. As yovargas said - it has the feeling of being sanitized. Both musically AND theologically. To the point where it really doesn't say anything - either musically OR theologically.

Ax, you hit the nail on the head for me with your post:

To be good, really good, music--like any artistic endeavor--has to be emotionally honest and has to have some substance, some depth, some pain. The conflict, the struggle, doesn't have to be in your face, but it has to inform the whole project. It can't be just pretty arrangements and technically competent performance.

the cynical part of me thinks they're ALL marketing: that it's a self-contained production and promotion process, where musicians of middling talent produce songs of middling interest that don't challenge their listeners.

As far as the repetition...perhaps Alatar is right about the attempt to create a hypnotic effect. But there is a difference between meditative repetition (as in the Taizé music) and mind-numbingly boring.

(If you've never been to a Taizé service, it is really beautiful. Chants repeated over and over with building harmonies and a feeling of incredible peace and spirit-nourishment. Have a look/listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGEjKV6eDxY)

Something else that really, really, really ANNOYS me about modern "praise music" is the vague, treacley, sticky-sweet theology. My brother (who is a born-again Christian and sings in several choirs) said he had to stop going to one church because that was ALL they sang. We sat at our family reunion and improvised a "praise song." Key of G (or D, usually) with the requisite modulation and upbeat tempo. I think the words were something like this:

Jesus is nice
Like sugar and spice
I love Him so much
With His healing touch.

Jesus loves me
Like honey love the bee
He loves me a lot
Even if I get shot.

Oh Jesus! (Oh, Jesus)
Oh Jeeeeeesusssss! (Oh Jeeeeeesusssss)
Come into my heart
Come into my soul
And make me whole...
And make me whooooole (modulate up one half step and pick up the tempo!)

Jesus is grand
He takes hold of my hand
He'll never let go
Through rain, wind and snow.
Oh Jesus (Oh Jesus)
Take hooooooooold of my haaaaaaand! (Big giant finish with variations on a I - IV - V - I chord progression, finally ending with a IV-I cadence.)

PS: Alatar, I listened to the Aaron Schust song twice. It is okay...basically inoffensive and he has a couple of interesting chord changes. But to be honest, he's a mediocre musician and it's a mediocre song. I don't think it belongs in a category of "Great Worship Songs."

Which has nothing to do with whether or not you LIKE it! I like plenty of music that I KNOW isn't great...but *I* like it!

[JewelSong]

Here's a song by Allison Krauss. Very simple, but very beautiful and effective. Lovely words, great imagery...and of course, her voice. The clip is from a live performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLZAWtdFhio

A Living Prayer

In this world I walk alone
With no place to call my home,
But there's one who holds my hand
Through rugged roads, through barren lands.
The way is dark, the road is steep,
But He's become my eyes to see,
The strength to climb, my griefs to bear.
The Savior lives inside me there.

Chorus:
In Your love I find relief,
A haven from my unbelief.
Take my life and let me be
A living prayer, my God, to Thee.

In these trials of life I find
Another voice inside my mind.
He comforts me and bids me live
Inside the love the Father gives.

In Your love I find relief,
A haven from my unbelief.
Take my life and let me be
A living prayer, my God, to Thee.

Take my life and let me be
A living prayer, my God, to Thee.

[tinwë]

I think the words were something like this:

Jesus is nice
Like sugar and spice
I love Him so much
With His healing touch.

Jesus loves me
Like honey love the bee
He loves me a lot
Even if I get shot.

Oh Jesus! (Oh, Jesus)
Oh Jeeeeeesusssss! (Oh Jeeeeeesusssss)
Come into my heart
Come into my soul
And make me whole...
And make me whooooole (modulate up one half step and pick up the tempo!)

Jesus is grand
He takes hold of my hand
He'll never let go
Through rain, wind and snow.
Oh Jesus (Oh Jesus)
Take hooooooooold of my haaaaaaand! (Big giant finish with variations on a I - IV - V - I chord progression, finally ending with a IV-I cadence.)

This sounds like it came from the episode of South Park where Cartman formed a Christian rock band. His formula for writing Christian rock songs was to take regular rock songs and replace words like "baby" and "darling" with "Jesus".

I'm ambivalent to the subject of praise music myself. I personally don't care for it myself, but I hesitate to say how much I don't care for it because I know that are some people who like it (my brother plays keyboards in a praise band at his church). Many churches today offer "contemporary" services that focus on praise music, and while I am not a church going person myself I understand and appreciate the need to make it more appealing to young people. My guess is that this particular type of music is, like the services it is played at, very much in its infancy, and one would hope that as time goes by the music will get better. Because, honestly, I'm not sure it could get much worse.

[JewelSong]

This sounds like it came from the episode of South Park where Cartman formed a Christian rock band. His formula for writing Christian rock songs was to take regular rock songs and replace words like "baby" and "darling" with "Jesus".

Which is sort of what they did in the movie "Sister Act." It works the other way, too...in the movie "Ray" (about Ray Charles) his girlfriend is horrified because he takes gospel music and turns it into upbeat love songs, simply by replacing the words "Jesus" and "God" with "baby" and "honey!"

If the music is good to start with, it will work...at least musically, even if the words are pap. But the music in MOST of the praise music I have heard is just vapid, overblown, predictable cr*p.

My guess is that this particular type of music is, like the services it is played at, very much in its infancy, and one would hope that as time goes by the music will get better. Because, honestly, I'm not sure it could get much worse.

[tinwë]

Ok, so I guess I did say how much I don't like it. My apologies. I really don't mean to offend anyone, including my own brother, who is very proud (and rightfully so) of what he is contributing to his church.

[JewelSong]

Modern praise music is to worship what Andrew Lloyd Webber is to musical theater.

[axordil]

Hey, he had two decent musicals over the past forty years. That's not too bad an average.

[Primula Baggins]

That's more than I've had, I have to admit.

[Alatar]

Aha! And so you are revealed. That's simply musical snobbery. I'm not a huge fan of ALW, but I love some of his work, and its probably not the same stuff someone else loves. Music is essentially about how it makes you feel, and if it makes me feel good, I'm calling it good. If it makes me feel like turning off the CD, I'm calling it bad. It really really bugs me when people claim to have the inside track on what is good music and what is bad music.

Take any song by Dylan and hand it to Britney Spears to record. You think she'll make great art from it? Why not? Its still the same song. Think of all the covers you've ever heard. How many of them were better than the original? I'm guessing you have less than the fingers on one hand up. (Unless they're Dylan covers, cause in fairness, that guy just can't sing).

Jewel, all songs are derivative. Even the ones you like. The difference is some are derivative and appealing to you while others are derivative and unappealing to you. I absolutely guarantee you that if I took a little known Beatles song, stuck "Jesus" in instead of "Baby" or whatever and got some suntanned mophead to sing it, you'd declare it vapid and derivative.

[nerdanel]

yov -- I LOVE Sufjan Stevens, but I hadn't realized that it would be considered "Praise Music".

[Holbytla]

Think of all the covers you've ever heard. How many of them were better than the original? I'm guessing you have less than the fingers on one hand up. (Unless they're Dylan covers, cause in fairness, that guy just can't sing).

I was with you up until this. I don't think it lends credence to your argument. Depends on the song and who is covering it.
And yes I have many more than 5 fingers raised.

[JewelSong]

Aha! And so you are revealed. That's simply musical snobbery. I'm not a huge fan of ALW, but I love some of his work, and its probably not the same stuff someone else loves.

I was being partly faceitous...but only partly. As a composer, ALW does have a few good pieces. But then, Pachelbel had only one good piece. However, everyone knows it!

Music is essentially about how it makes you feel, and if it makes me feel good, I'm calling it good. If it makes me feel like turning off the CD, I'm calling it bad. It really really bugs me when people claim to have the inside track on what is good music and what is bad music.

Well, I am the same way. Yes, music is essentially about how it makes you feel. However, I freely admit that I like some really mediocre and some just plain BAD music. I like it for how it makes me feel, what it reminds me of, where I was when I first heard it - many reasons. But I know, as a musician, that musically it's not very good and I know WHY it isn't. That is not snobbery, nor am I claiming to have any "inside track."

Take any song by Dylan and hand it to Britney Spears to record. You think she'll make great art from it? Why not? Its still the same song. Think of all the covers you've ever heard. How many of them were better than the original? I'm guessing you have less than the fingers on one hand up. (Unless they're Dylan covers, cause in fairness, that guy just can't sing).

You are talking about original artists. I am talking about the music. Everything written before the age of recording that is played now is a cover - all Mozart and Bach and Beethoven and Puccini and Tchaicovsky and so on. Don't get sidetracked with "which is better - the original or the cover" because that is not what this discussion is about (AFAIK!) It's about the MUSIC itself. Does it stand up ON ITS OWN? Not is it "better" necessarily, but does it hold its own. A good piece of music should be able to be performed successfully by different people - not just the composer.

Now as far as Britney Spears doing a cover of Dylan (or anyone) - well, in order for a song to hold its own, the artist performing it must be of a certain caliber. I would submit that Ms. Spears is probably not.

I absolutely guarantee you that if I took a little known Beatles song, stuck "Jesus" in instead of "Baby" or whatever and got some suntanned mophead to sing it, you'd declare it vapid and derivative.

Well, now, it would depend on the song and the words. The Beatles songs were successful not because of the words (in general) but because of their melding of chords, time signatures and uncommon keys - plus some close harmonies and (in the beginning) a certain joie de vivre that was unusual (and still is) in pop music.

I have been thinking about the whole "praise music" genre and I think one of the things that bothers me about it is the same thing that bothers me about much of ALW's music. It's pretentious. It over-reaches and instead of being a nice little 3 or 4 chord song with a simple accompaniment and harmony, it tries to be a BIG! GIANT! LOUD! OVERTHETOP! MUSICAL EVENT!

Which is exactly how I feel about most of ALW's stuff.

ETA:

yov -- I LOVE Sufjan Stevens, but I hadn't realized that it would be considered "Praise Music".

It isn't.

[yovargas]

Aha! And so you are revealed. That's simply musical snobbery. I'm not a huge fan of ALW, but I love some of his work, and its probably not the same stuff someone else loves. Music is essentially about how it makes you feel, and if it makes me feel good, I'm calling it good. If it makes me feel like turning off the CD, I'm calling it bad. It really really bugs me when people claim to have the inside track on what is good music and what is bad music.

This attitude...bothers me a lot. I see this kinda of response to a lot of thoughtful art criticism and what it amounts to is "stop thinking, it's snooty". As someone who spends a lot of time thinking about art, what it's value can be, and how it functions, that's pretty insulting. And it's such a common response - why are people so threatened with the idea that you can think about what you like?? We can do better then "I just like what I like"! Your standards can be different than mine but have standards - thoughtful, intelligent one's preferably! And if you're not interested enough in doing that, don't call me a snob for doing so myself!

It's an attitude that promotes - even defends! - mindless consumption and that should NEVER be something we encourage, in the arena of art or elsewhere.

yov -- I LOVE Sufjan Stevens, but I hadn't realized that it would be considered "Praise Music".

It's not which was my point. He makes music that will contain explicitly Christian perspectives but he doesn't get dumped into the "Christian music" ghetto. That's because, like good art should be, its appeal is in its humanity, not in its Christianity.