Avatar

[Nin]

I certainly went for that and got it.

Now, a bit later I think what bothers me most about the movie - even more than the very basic story line - is that message: God exists (even if under a different name). I'm tired of movies with religious messages...

[vison]

Saw Avatar last night. As the 3D aspect is really the only *thing* in the movie, I can imagine how boring it must have been for you, River.

The Native-American/Dances with Wolves angle is evident to everyone here. I also saw another angle - that of the East India Company & India. I guess since it was a corporate, with its own paid force - exactly how the East India Company operated in India for years till the 1857 Mutiny.

It's the way things were - the East India Company was only one of several in Asia and Africa. And that's a very good point: yet, as was pointed out above, "American servicemen" were there!!! Indeed. The military working for the interests of a private company!!! What a shock.

This isn't the thread for that discussion, though. Maybe someone should start one, but I don't think I will.

Spoilers:














The Avatar story was not Hamlet. Well, you know, it wasn't going to be Hamlet, was it? It was a very familiar story for a lot of reasons, mainly that it IS familiar, being the history of "the advance" of Western Civilization. And of course Cameron wanted our sympathies on the side of the Na'vi. Why wouldn't he? They are his creation, he loves them, and: it was THEIR world. Their place, their culture. I'm not asserting it was "superior" or "better", just that it was theirs and, as is the common and time-honoured habit of our species, we wanted their stuff and so we just went there to take it.

When that moronic Marine officer referred to them as "hostiles" it was dumb, yes, but it was the precise mindset that we see in the very real world we live in. It is dumb. It is wrong. It is evil and wicked. But it will go on until maybe one day it won't.

I admit I sometimes look forward to the day aliens land here and turn us Superior Westerners with our technology and our "civilization" to jelly and make us into the Na'vi or, maybe, the Navaho.

[vison]

I certainly went for that and got it.

Now, a bit later I think what bothers me most about the movie - even more than the very basic story line - is that message: God exists (even if under a different name). I'm tired of movies with religious messages...

I didn't see it as "religious". I thought it was, actually, quite "unreligious". The "god" of Pandora was not a "god" in any sense I would use the word.

[Nin]

Well, to me it was: a higher power to which they prayed - and which answered - so which exists.... absolutely not my cup of tea.

But I think I'll see it again nevertheless with the boys, because they will love the stunning visuals.

(an yes, there is some discussable stuff in the movie... but should there be a new thread or what?)

[vison]

Well, to me it was: a higher power to which they prayed - and which answered - so which exists.... absolutely not my cup of tea.

But I think I'll see it again nevertheless with the boys, because they will love the stunning visuals.

(an yes, there is some discussable stuff in the movie... but should there be a new thread or what?)

I wouldn't say "prayed" but "asked", although the two words mean much the same thing. And it wasn't a "higher power", it was . . . well, that's a spoiler, so won't go on.

I liked it, on the whole. The silly bits didn't bother me that much and I really liked the creatures and the trees. Especially the trees.

[Alatar]

Well, I went again yesterday with my kids and my Brother. They loved it, as I expected. What struck me on a second viewing was the sheer sense of depth. One of the very first shots, when Jake is coming out of his cryo chamber in zero G. Its fantastic, a real "money shot" and I'd say its accurate because I'm sure they spent a lot of money on that one shot.

It reminded me of the shot in Fellowship where Gandalf hands his hat and staff to Bilbo. They spent a long time getting that one shot just right, cause once you've bought in, you get less fussy. There were a few clunky Bluescreen shots in Fellowship, but you were already invested. If that early shot of the two together had been clunky, it would have taken far more work to get us back in.

Thats how I felt about the shot of the cryo chamber. It had such depth, and multiple effects, with people floating in different directions, choosing different walls to brace against. I'm not sure there was another shot in the movie that worked as well. In fact, I think the 3D has somewhat taken from the other achievement, in Motion Captured CGI creatures. The realism is startling. I would happily watch that movie again in 2D just to watch the CG.

[yovargas]

Well, to me it was: a higher power to which they prayed - and which answered - so which exists.... absolutely not my cup of tea.

Why would one bit of fantasy bug you in a movie with a bunch of other fantasy?

[vison]

Well, I went again yesterday with my kids and my Brother. They loved it, as I expected. What struck me on a second viewing was the sheer sense of depth. One of the very first shots, when Jake is coming out of his cryo chamber in zero G. Its fantastic, a real "money shot" and I'd say its accurate because I'm sure they spent a lot of money on that one shot.

It reminded me of the shot in Fellowship where Gandalf hands his hat and staff to Bilbo. They spent a long time getting that one shot just right, cause once you've bought in, you get less fussy. There were a few clunky Bluescreen shots in Fellowship, but you were already invested. If that early shot of the two together had been clunky, it would have taken far more work to get us back in.

Thats how I felt about the shot of the cryo chamber. It had such depth, and multiple effects, with people floating in different directions, choosing different walls to brace against. I'm not sure there was another shot in the movie that worked as well. In fact, I think the 3D has somewhat taken from the other achievement, in Motion Captured CGI creatures. The realism is startling. I would happily watch that movie again in 2D just to watch the CG.

I agree.

[Nin]

The visuals are truly stunning! I am afraid of hights, so during some of the walks on the trees, I almost felt sick... I loved the shot where the doctor (played by Sigourney Weaver) takes an information directly from a computer screen to a small portable screen. It was so real! But I wondered also why, despite the stuning visuals, the story did not touch me (unlike e.g. Dances with wolves). I think it's too many clichés and absent acting (unlike LOTR)

Visually, there was just a bit too much light in the jungle for me (too fluorescent, reminded me of lightening ads on Times Square), but that's okay. So, were your kids (8 and 11, right?) okay with it?

Vison, for me it was deity enough to be bothering... inwardly I rolled my eyes and thought: of course... another prayer answering God (and I saw it in the original version, so it is not that it as if I had bady translated "prier" from French). Different sensibility on that point, I guess.

[Primula Baggins]

If this "god" has physical existence on the planet, then it's not a god, just a powerful creature. It's not a religious message or concept at all.

[Nin]

Well, to me it was: a higher power to which they prayed - and which answered - so which exists.... absolutely not my cup of tea.

Why would one bit of fantasy bug you in a movie with a bunch of other fantasy?

yov, one of the things I always loved about LOTR is the fact that it does not mention any religious values or buildings - you have to go to the Silmarillion for that... I like some forms of fantasy - and I dislike religion (as said many times) and this particular part was too "religious" and not enough "fantastic" for me - alongside with the fact that this idea of praying and answering annoys me in general.

[Nin]

If this "god" has physical existence on the planet, then it's not a god, just a powerful creature. It's not a religious message or concept at all.

But it referred to as "spirit". Not a physical, visible entity.

[River]

Speaking as one who is blissfully undistracted by 3D, I can assure you on that score: the CG is stunning. If you didn't already know that none of this stuff is found in our solar system, you'd be swallowing it whole.

Mahima, I hadn't thought about it from the Dutch East India angle, but that is another way to look at it. Then again, colonialism is colonialism is colonialism. And as vison mentioned, think what you will of the Na'vi, but Pandora is theirs and they are under no obligation to just give it up because some dudes who can't even breath the air have guns and bulldozers.



Mild spoiler regarding supreme beings:










Honestly, I think Cameron took the supreme being aspect of the story and subverted it. The mother goddess of Pandora is not something mystical you have to believe in. There's a real physical phenomenon that the scientists themselves observe and the life on Pandora has evolved to make use of. The Na'vi don't just believe they can talk to the animals and specific types of plants - they quite literally plug themselves in. Even the avatars are capable of doing this, as Sully discovers. This turns the planet itself into a sort of meta-being and once made aware of a serious enough threat, the planet responds to defend itself. The Na'vi call it a spirit only because they lack any other word for it...in English at least.

[Inanna]

I agree that the CG was very-very good. You could not tell that the machines were 3D-generated and the marines were real actors.

SPOILERS concerning "supreme beings":

There is a bit of a "mix" with actual being and spiritual being in the movie. Yes, Ewya is part of how the planet functions (the neuron connections), but its not a power the Na'vi completely understand, or control. I mean they can't hold a discussion with the tree and plan an attack strategy which involves the animals. And the impression I got was that the Na'vi don't really know that everything is interconnected with neuron connections, or that the tree, Ewya, can actually influence and control other animals/trees. So, they don't really know, and hence there is a measure of faith and belief. Which is the root of religion, is it not?

[vison]

I agree with River, although Mahima makes some good points.

Nin, the lack of overt religion was one of the things I loved about LOTR. But this story is very different. I think River has got it right. Like you, Nin, I'm afraid of heights and some scenes were reaaly hard to watch.

[Frelga]

Saw it at last. It surpassed my expectations. Rather than pretty pictures with a silly plot I expected, it was stunning pictures with a predictable but solid plot and good characters. Sure, Dances with Wolves and all that, but in a good way. You know what is going to happen but not how.

Actually, I did not find that 3D added all that much to the experience. I don't remember anything flying out of the screen at me, except some burning debrees at one point.

I also wonder what kind of goggles must a person wear to see this primarily as a political movie. Sure, it's not agenda-free, but come on, evil developer displaces gentle good guys had been done since the dawn of moviemaking. The environmental angle was far less explicit than Tolkien's huorns and Lórien (I kept thinking Elves with tails ). And really, the actions of the bad guys were taken straight out of real life many times over.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Saw it at last. It surpassed my expectations. Rather than pretty pictures with a silly plot I expected, it was stunning pictures with a predictable but solid plot and good characters. Sure, Dances with Wolves and all that, but in a good way. You know what is going to happen but not how.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction.

I also wonder what kind of goggles must a person wear to see this primarily as a political movie. [/quote]

Only someone who agrees with the politics could possibly say that. It is a supremely political film. The fact that I do largely agree with its politics (and its spiritual message) does prevent me from recognizing just how political it is.

[Frelga]

Sorry, V, but I disagree. What politics? There is no message in the movie except the most kindergarden-level. What, exactly, is the viewer supposed to take out of it, what action is he or she to take that applies to real-world politics? What group or movement do the bad guys represent that corresponds to the real world? Even the environmentalist message I expected from the reviews is extremely mild. It is not the damage to Pandora's environment as such that is the center of conflict. If Cameron tried to make a political movie, as some mentioned he claimed, he did not succeed.

[Crucifer]

I agree with Frelga. The only vaguely political message I found in it was the old clichéd "Be nice to everyone, and don't litter", which has been thrown at us so often that I imagine people didn't see it because they've been immunized. This is what made the film tired and boring for me. The plot was clichéd and moralising, and the means by which it unfolded were (I thought) predictable and honey-glazed. The visual effects everyone keeps raving about were pretty at best, and gaudy at worst. I could have made most of those with some plants and a bunch of glowsticks.

[sauronsfinger]

Have to agree with Voronwë, Solicitr and others and said that back on page two of this thread. AVATAR is a film with a decided political bent to it. It is pro environment, anti-capitalism, anti- big business greed, and somewhat anti-military as well. One of the obvious signs that the whole thing was a political send up was the name of the valuable mineral the corporation is seeking. UNOBTAINIUM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium

Its a joke name. We know nothing of what it is going to do, how it is utilized, why it is valuable or anything else other than its financial worth. The assumption then is that this company is more than willing to destroy this Edenlike civilization for this meaningless mineral. It would be different if what was under the Navi home was a cure for cancer or all illness or would permit five billion people to live and then there would actually be some debate about the merits of making the decisions and their implications. But all we know is that we are suppose to allow the destruction of this race for some bauble just because it is worth money. It denies the corporation of any sympathy at all from the audience. Of course, that is intentional.

I do think that there are many fine and enjoyable films which also have a decided political bent to them but most folks just can get beyond that if the film is entertaining. For me, two such examples are the Clint Eastwood DIRTY HARRY films and the Charles Bronson DEATH WISH films. Both are guilty pleasures of mine and I enjoy them quite a bit. Watching Eastwood or Bronson blow away criminal scumbags puts a smile on my face. Now the politics and message in both series is not something I support or agree with but I simply do not care about that. I do not look for films to teach me about politics.

No matter what your personal politics are, its easy to sit back and enjoy the eye candy of AVATAR.