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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Yeah, that following isn't going to be hard to get... as it already exists...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:32 pm 
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vison wrote:
I think it is a pretty great stretch to call Sauron a "reformer". An underminer, a teacher of rebellion , a 'borer from within', maybe, but hardly a "reformer".


JRRT wrote:
"At the beginning of the Second Age [Sauron] was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape - and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all "reformers" who want to hurry up with "reconstruction" and "reorganisation" are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up."
-- Letter of September 1954, quoted in Unfinished Tales p. 254.


"The way of this Ring to my heart is through pity."

After all, societies that believe themselves "good" (and most do) don't usually fall for the guy with the goats' skulls and pentagrams. The age-old Enlightenment and Free Candy formula works because at the outset the sales pitch *accords* with what the suckers believe to be good and right and just and desirable. And, humans having an infinite capacity for denial and rationalization, even when it becomes clear that "Free" ain't really, the price can be justified according to Enlightened Thought. After all, the Lord of Gifts/politician/charismatic Leader is wise and just and selfless, and needs to be given power and authority- just a little, it's not so much, really- so he can reconstruct and reorganise for our benefit. Vide the rise of Augustus.

Before long, the Leader has convinced us (easily enough) that the current shortage of Free Candy is due to unreformed aspects of society and, given just a little more power- not that much- to overcome selfish reactionary opposition, the chocolate ration can be increased to twenty grammes.

I'm afraid humans will buy nearly anything if it appears to be to their personal benefit, but assuages any niggling conscience by being cleverly wrapped up in the rhetoric of "morality". Who could be against Peace and Justice and Fairness and Equality?

Quote:
'What have you to say, Théoden King? Will you have peace with me, and all the aid that my knowledge, founded in long years, can bring? Shall we make our counsels together against evil days, and repair our injuries with such good will that our estates shall both come to fairer flower than ever before?'


And Guilt. The appeal to Guilt, and false moral equivalency:
Quote:
'But my lord of Rohan, am I to be called a murderer, because valiant men have fallen in battle?..But if I am a murderer on that account, then all the House of Eorl is stained with murder... Yet with some they have afterwards made peace, none the worse for being politic. I say, Théoden King: shall we have peace and friendship, you and I? It is ours to command."


The clever "burrower" carries out subversion through perversion of language and meaning, the gradual equivocation of the words of morality, until the words become hollow shells to be filled with new, contradictory meanings. "Freedom is Slavery."


Last edited by solicitr on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:40 pm 
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check back in a years time Hal and let me know how its doing. it has been on one week.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:44 pm 
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I'm just saying the following is already there... Firefly, Serenity, Stargate... She's actually the reason I got interested in the show.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:50 pm 
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If the lady has a following in sci-fi circles, that is fine. But such followings do not always transfer to the larger mass market popularity necessary to be the centerpiece on a network show. Give it a few months at least before any sort of judgment can be rendered as to if it is going to be a success.

If I had to compare this actress to the one in the original series, I would say the original was much more appealing - but thats just me. I guess I do not like my women to have the haircut of a 12 year old boy. That supermodel, skinny androgynous look just is not for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:03 pm 
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you can find whatever reason you like to not like it... I wouldn't expect you to.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Is this intended to be a full series or a miniseries? There's only 4 eps listed on thetvdb

1 Pilot 2009-11-03
2 There is No Normal Anymore 2009-11-10
3 A Bright New Day 2009-11-17
4 It's Only The Beginning 2009-11-24

http://thetvdb.com/?tab=season&seriesid ... 7231&lid=7

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:12 pm 
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from Halplm
Quote:
I wouldn't expect you to.


What is that suppose to mean? :scratch:

Alatar - this may answer your question - it is from Wikipedia

Quote:
In September 2009 it was announced that four episodes of V would air in November 2009, and that the series would resume in March 2010 after the 2010 Winter Olympics to complete its 13-episode season.[9] ABC entertainment president Steve McPherson said, "We always intended to break the show up into 'pods' to make it more of an event."[9] As production of the fourth episode of V wrapped, it was announced on November 3, 2009 that Scott Rosenbaum had been named executive producer and showrunner of the series, with Peters and Hall remaining as executive producers.[4] Production on the remaining nine episodes will resume in January 2010.[4]


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:39 pm 
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solictr wrote:
. . . .And, humans having an infinite capacity for denial and rationalization,


Indeed, indeed they do. :D I often note that, just to myself you know, never out loud, when I reflect upon the hold that religion has on so many people.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:00 pm 
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solictr wrote:
. . . .And, humans having an infinite capacity for denial and rationalization,



Indeed, indeed they do. I often note that, just to myself you know, never out loud, when I reflect upon the hold that religion has on so many people.


Yup. The Elmer Gantry racket is one of the oldest forms. Of course it's even more effective (and dangerous) when there's more than profit in the prophet biz: when the Church is in cahoots with the State and they can justify each other. Better yet, when the State is identical to the Church (Temple/Mosque/Sacred Volcano). Then you can sit in your silver-domed monument while they bring you victims to be burned.....

Of course, in the post-religious West the God con doesn't really work any more above the mansion-and-a-coupla-Mercedes scale. The effective pitch of the 20th and current centuries has been the rational, secular Transcendant Wisdom. One is no longer called on to further the Will of God, but the Revolution or the Aryan Race or whatever, "deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose."


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:16 pm 
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of Vinyamar
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sauronsfinger wrote:
And in my humble opinion, that female star who plays the head alien is not at atttractive. Lotsa luck building a following around her.


Y'know, apart from the personal taste differences, I find it a bit worrying that you think the success or failure of a Sci Fi show depends on the h0ttness of the leading lady...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
sauronsfinger wrote:
And in my humble opinion, that female star who plays the head alien is not at atttractive. Lotsa luck building a following around her.


Y'know, apart from the personal taste differences, I find it a bit worrying that you think the success or failure of a Sci Fi show depends on the h0ttness of the leading lady...


Not to mention, I'd have difficulty putting her as the "leading lady" at all.

I think that label would be more accurate to give to Elizabeth Mitchell, who certainly had a more interesting story in the first episode.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:32 pm 
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No - the success or failure of the show will depend on if the ratings can sustain the expense necessary to produce it. Obviously some of the sci-fi fans will embrace it and it will get some buzz in the usual areas where such things are fawned over. But that crowd embraces lots of things that fail to get beyond a very limited audience. A major network hour length show has far more demands upon it than something on the sci-fi channel or the cartoon network.

I do think the story will depend greatly on that central figure of the alien leader. The villain has always been an important factor in such things.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:36 pm 
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I watched the second episode last night and was paid extra attention to the two female leads. Elizabeth Mitchell (LOST) plays Erica the heroine of the story while Morena Baccarin plays Anna- the chief alien villian. I could not help but notice that Mitchell is what could best be described as the very pretty girl next door. She has those All-American country girl good looks and is shown to be vunerable, troubled and very sympathetic. The Anna character, is the opposite - she is more of the Cosmo super model cover girl type, long and lean with the haircut of a 12 year old boy. While the Erica character is feminine, the Anna character is almost androgynous in looks. At one point I swear she looked like a slightly female version of the Geico insurance lizard in the ads. Perhaps this was intentional casting on the part of the producers since that is the gimmick of the characters that has already been revealed. If so, it is a clever idea.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the ratings that come out later today or tomorrow and compare them to the first week.

update:

http://headlineplanet.com/home/2009/11/ ... ck-to-low/

Quote:
Though a drop was inevitable given the role curiosity played in the premiere rating, ABC was undoubtedly hoping “V” could avoid a sizable second week tumble. It did not.

While the week two “V” rating–10.7 million viewers and a 3.7 adults 18-49 rating–was strong by any realistic measurement, it represented a decline of nearly 30% from last week’s bow. The drop was enough to allow “NCIS” (20.2 million, 4.2) to reclaim the 8PM hour and hastily nix the notion that “V” would breakout as a legitimate ratings powerhouse.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:50 pm 
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I DVRed it and will probably watch it this weekend—I wonder if this will turn out to be one of those shows where people do that. Mr. Prim is often not in the mood for drama during the week (and actually I don't think he'll be sticking with this show; he objected to the plot problems more strongly than I did and is not a reflexive SF lover).

Neilsen now does measure ratings from people who watch a DVRed show within 3 days and don't zap the commercials, so that rating might increase.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:56 pm 
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The ratings numbers contain both the usual good news and bad news. The good news is that if they can hold the number of viewers they had last night for future episodes, the show should be a success. The bad news is that it was the single largest drop off of any new show on the major networks this season. Should that continue over the next two episodes already filmed, they may think twice about going before the cameras again in January as is now scheduled.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:17 pm 
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The overnight ratings are in for last nights episode (Nov. 17) and it looks like that opening night was the top of the roller coaster.

this from hitfix.com

Quote:
CBS started the night in first with a 12.3/19 for "NCIS," which also won the hour in the key demo with a 4.1 rating. ABC's "V" was second with a 6.0/9 and a 3.1 rating in the key demo, losing roughly 1.3 million viewers and 0.6 demo ratings points from last week.


They have one more episode filmed and it will be interesting to see what happens with that one. The last two weeks ratings have not been good for long term prospects since they clearly demonstrate that viewers did tune in but fewer are returning each week. That is the opposite of what a network wants with a big ticket show like this.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:32 pm 
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I'm not sure I understand your obsession with the possible failure of this show.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:49 pm 
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Success or failure...... news is news.

this from aint it cool news

Quote:
* “V” continues to drop hard and fast, from first place two weeks ago to a distant third at 8 p.m. this week, behind “NCIS” and “The Biggest Loser.” ABC airs one more episode next Tuesday before it has to decide if it still wants the saucer saga back in March.


Next weeks should be critical for the series. If it continues to lose more than a million persons each week, ABC will have a tough decision to make about funding more episodes.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:18 am 
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I haven't seen this series. Is there any chance that the show's creators are playing on audience expectations based on the original shows, and that the aliens will turn out not to be villains after all? Something like Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End?


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