Number 9, Number 9......

Discussion of performing arts, including theatre, film, television, and music.
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

A bit more about recording the Beatles, and the mono versus stereo issue.

George Martin, Norman Smith (primary engineer for the first six albums), Geoff Emerick (engineer for Revolver, Sgt. Pepper, part of "White Album", and Abbey Road) and the four Beatles themselves never took the stereo mixes very seriously until the last few albums. Through the "White Album" the mono mixes were thought of as the definitive mixes. Stereo mixes were done in much less time, and the Beatles themselves, for at least the first seven albums, were not even present at the stereo mix sessions.

With the early albums, the two-track masters were never really intended to be listened to as they were (backing instrument track hard panned left, vocals and misc. other things hard panned right). They were merely an intermediate step to securing a higher quality mono master (i.e. the vocal/instrument balance could be attended to later, during the making of the mono master, rather than taking up valuable time trying to get it perfect during the actual recording of the songs).

George Martin (regarding the hard panned stereo mixes of the early albums):
"People say to me 'it's great to hear John and Paul coming out of one speaker and all the backing out of the other'. I think it's terrible, myself. There's no way I would have agreed to having those records being issued as stereo in that form."
Geoff Emerick:
"True Beatles fans would do well to avail themselves of the mono versions of Sgt. Pepper and Revolver because far more time and effort went into those mixes than into the stereo mixes."

(actually, three weeks, versus two and a half days. The Beatles were heavily involved in the Pepper mono mix sessions but did not even bother to go to the stereo mix sessions).

Why? Home "stereo" record players were still rare in the mid sixties. Most people (especially teens) had the simple mono record player units. Later in the sixties adults might have had the one piece furniture style units where the speakers were only a few feet apart. With those types of units in mind, by the time of Rubber Soul George Martin was purposely experimenting with the hard panned stereo mixes to give more separation. But even at this time, and for another three albums or so, the mono mixes were still considered the "real" mixes.

Stereo mixes became the primary (and in most cases only) master mixes after the "White Album".

Couple of other points:
On the two first albums and equivalent singles (recorded on two track recorders), though the idea was to capture a "live" sound (i.e the Beatles playing and singing a song in its entirety), overdubs of some kind (either extra instruments, lead guitar, harmonica, or sometimes vocals) were performed on the majority of the released songs. A fair number of the released songs were also edited together from multiple takes. Only a handful of songs were done completely "live" with no overdubs or edits (eg. "Twist and Shout"), and on a few (for eg. "Love Me Do" and "She Loves You"), an instrumental backing track was recorded first, then vocals were sung "live" while listening to the backing track being played back on monitor speakers. As they were singing, the vocals and pre-recorded backing track would be blended together through the mixing console on to a second two track tape deck. This process was called "superimposition". The decision of whether to do a complete take, including vocals, or to do it in pieces was usually decided by George Martin, depending on the difficulty of the song, and how familiar the band was with it at the time of the recording. In some cases (eg. "Money", I Wanna Be Your Man" and a few others) multiple superimpositions were done, but usually George Martin tried to limit it to one.

After the Beatles started recording with 4-track recorders (at the time of "I Want To Hold You Hand"), they had a bit more flexibility in adding overdubs, but still they always started with getting a good "live" backing track, sometimes with, and sometimes without vocals. When more than four tracks were required they would do "reduction" mixes, combining several tracks from the original 4-track tape onto one track of a second 4-track machine, and then adding more overdubs on the remaining three tracks. Sometimes (especially during Sgt. Pepper) they would do several "reductions". This is how the Beatles recorded until until mid way through the White Album, when they acquired an 8-track recorder.

One other thing: I don't know how many times I've read statements like this online:
"For 500 dollars the average kid with a computer can have a much better recording studio than the Beatles had"

This is simply ludicrous. While it's true that 500 dollars can buy you a basic amateur digital recording program with lots of tracks and multiple "bell and whistle" effects, this does not ensure a great recording. Any professional can tell you that the "front end" of recording is critical. At the time of recording the Beatles EMI studios at Abbey Road had extremely fine (and expensive) microphones, preamps, tape recorders and processing equipment, plus great "spaces", and of course, expert technical personnel. While tape hiss could build up a bit in the analog recording world (especially after multiple superimpositions), it was barely noticeable when handled by experienced pros. Whether it's the Beatles, or, for example, the great performances of Frank Sinatra in the 50s and early 60s, the quality of recordings from that era speak for themselves. There is a LOT to be learned from the warmth, naturalness and character of those recordings. The best studios in the world today spend hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to get hold of equipment that has that terrific vintage sound.

It's interesting to me as a musician/engineer/producer that for those of us who adhere to the "classic" philosphy of recording a band, the basic process hasn't really changed much. We still begin by getting a good live backing track, then add to it with additional "overdub" tracks, fixing/editing as necessary, and adding some effects for "flavor". Granted, with digital technology and many more individual tracks available, the overdubbing and editing process is easier and more surgical, but the approach is still the same.
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

Geeez, I got a bit carried away there
(it happens when you're passionate about something!!).
But, after all that, for those who are debating which remastered CDs to get, I guess what I'm recommending is:
Buy the mono CD set, and supplement that with the last 4 or 5 individual stereo CDs (perhaps having both mono and stereo for Sgt. Pepper and the White Album). Then sit back and enjoy them!
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Post by axordil »

I don't know...I would really like to hear what they do with Tomorrow Never Knows in the stereo mix. :D

It would be nice if they managed to straighten out the whole iTunes thing by September--but it would surprise me if they announced any deal, even if it's in place. It's in the interests of the parties involved to sell as many boxes and CDs as possible, then allow the a la carte.
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

axordil wrote:I don't know...I would really like to hear what they do with Tomorrow Never Knows in the stereo mix.
I know what you mean! :D
(Ok, so what the h@#$, buy both box sets. A year from now the pain of how expensive they were won't matter! and you'll still have all that great music! ;) )

In regard to itunes: Can you buy individual songs at full 16 bit CD quality??
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Post by axordil »

I think 16-bit is the default--they also support 24-bit. Bitrates of 128k are standard, with some 256k available.
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

The Beatles remastered box sets (Mono and Stereo) are now available for preorder from Amazon.com

Stereo

http://www.amazon.com/Beatles-Stereo-Bo ... 281&sr=1-1[/url]

Mono

http://www.amazon.com/Beatles-Mono-Box- ... 344&sr=1-1[/url]

The Mono Set is listed as a limited release (I read elsewhere 10,000 copies). Wonder if they'll hold to that ??!! :D
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Post by axordil »

Right up until copy 9999 is sold. :)
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Post by solicitr »

Thanks for that, Lin! :bow:

I would add that, as both George Martin and Geoff Emerick mention in their memoirs, EMI in the Sixties was a very stodgy outfit, a real white-lab-coats-and-ties kind of workplace, and producers and engineers were surrounded by Rules and Regulations at every turn. Martin bent them as far as he dared, and mostly got away with it (hey, it's the bestselling band on earth we're talking here!) Nonetheless, the feeble bass on the albums up through Rubber Soul was not an accident, but quite deliberate- as long as Norman Smith was the engineer he obediently followed the Rule that bass frequencies on pop records be rolled off (lest they cause little Close-n-Plays to skip!). The Boys were perennially annoyed that they couldn't have the rich, thumping bass they heard on Motown and other US labels.

More to the mono-stereo point: the Rules said that in Studio 2 the final mix *had* to be monitored through the big (mono) speaker in the control room. And so it was for every Abbey Road-cut track before, well, Abbey Road. (Some of the White Album and all of Get Back/Let it Be were recorded elsewhere).
Last edited by solicitr on Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

solicitr wrote: as long as Norman Smith was the engineer he obediently followed the Rule that bass frequencies on pop records be rolled off (lest they cause little Close-n-Plays to skip!).
Excellent point. The low level of bass is the one thing that bugs me about the early Beatles recordings. When I listen to those first few albums I always turn up the bass. It will be interesting to see what they've done with the remasters in that regard.

By the way, at Amazon.com (US only) the Mono and Stereo box sets are currently at #14 and #17 respectively. Pretty remarkable considering they are over $200 each, and we are 2 months away from release!! When you're good....you're good!! The Tolkien analogy continues!!!???
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

So....the next big question is.......
Will the Rutles remaster their albums?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqDuOP5 ... PL&index=8
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Post by Alatar »

Out of curiosity, do any of you have any interest in the "Beatles Rock Band" game coming out this year?

http://www.thebeatlesrockband.com/trailer.php
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Lindréd
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Post by Lindréd »

While I do enjoy board games of all sorts, I've never really explored interactive computer or video games etc. so I probably won't be ordering the Beatles Rock Band game....at least for now.

My gut-level (and probably predictable) reaction to the "rock band" sorts of games is that if kids spent an equivalent amount of time actually learning to play an instrument then they could play in a real band! :D

Perhaps they do have some basic music educational value??? I don't know, but I am curious. Do you have any experience with these types of games?

(btw, I still would be interested to know what amp you use with that supercool Brian May guitar your wife gave you!!)
"...the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music...and loved the woods and riversides, and some still would wander far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went" - JRRT
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Post by solicitr »

(btw, I still would be interested to know what amp you use with that supercool Brian May guitar your wife gave you!!)
Properly it should be a Vox AC30. Or three AC30s chained in series...

http://www.brianmayworld.com/Vox_AC30.htm
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Post by Holbytla »

Lindréd wrote:While I do enjoy board games of all sorts, I've never really explored interactive computer or video games etc. so I probably won't be ordering the Beatles Rock Band game....at least for now.

My gut-level (and probably predictable) reaction to the "rock band" sorts of games is that if kids spent an equivalent amount of time actually learning to play an instrument then they could play in a real band! :D

Perhaps they do have some basic music educational value??? I don't know, but I am curious. Do you have any experience with these types of games?
The two aren't interchangable.
The Rock Band/ Guitar Hero things are all about hand eye coordination and speed. You can be a great guitar player and still have issues playing those games.

Conversely just because you rock at Rock Band, doesn't mean you have a chance at playing a guitar.

It is fun though and the Beatle game looks really well done.
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Post by Alatar »

What Holby said, but I think that being a guitarist helps as you're used to exercising that left hand in different ways and particularly in stretching with the little finger. The Guitar Hero/Rockband games are essentially games, not intended to be musical instructors, however many of the same principles apply. Rhythm and co-ordination are essential. I find the Bass and Drums are more like the real thing, particularly as you get into the more advanced levels. Guitar is less of a straight comparison because you're essestially rooted to the first 5 frets.

Hobbituk on TORC is a Drummer and he played it at the last Ireland moot. He reckoned that at Expert level the version of "Eye of the Tiger" was pretty much identical to playing it for real.

As for the Red Special, I just answered in the other thread. I'm using a basic Behringer Amp, but with the Digitech Red Special Pedal.
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Post by Alatar »

Lindred, do you mind if I quote some of your posts here on another board where we're discussing the Beatles Remasters?
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Post by solicitr »

When more than four tracks were required they would do "reduction" mixes, combining several tracks from the original 4-track tape onto one track of a second 4-track machine, and then adding more overdubs on the remaining three tracks. Sometimes (especially during Sgt. Pepper) they would do several "reductions".
Yes; however, Martin in particular was very reluctant to do more than one mixdown if he could possibly avoid it, for the very legitimate reason that each "bounce" on analog tape introduced additional distortion and lowered S/N ratio. That meant that, with a very few exceptions like "A Day in the Life", seven tracks was the effective limit.
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Post by Alatar »

Its Beatles Day! Apparently, given the pre-order numbers the Box Set at €190 a pop is likely to top the album charts this week. Not bad for a band who haven't recorded in 40 years (give or take a few)
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Post by Holbytla »

Whenever the "Beatles" re-release some material, they generally end up as the best selling artists of the year.

Been watching Anthology again and have been listening to their stuff for a good part of the day. I have been doing some pondering and yeah they were just 4 guys from Liverpool in some respects, but they also had a great amount of appeal, natural ability and talent.
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Post by solicitr »

Bad news: Apparently the mono mixes will only be available in the box set, and will not be released individually.

Bummer.


Also: does anyone know if there are plans to release these in SACD or Audio DVD format?
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