Prince Caspian

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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Yeah, I agree on the moral ambiguity here. This isn't 'forces of good' vs 'forces of evil.' This is war - typical war of men against men (okay, with quite a few critters on the good guys' side) for political purposes. Putting masks on the men doesn't make them inhuman monsters! Yes, Caspian was the rightful heir to the throne. Yes, Miraz was an usurper who could not be trusted. But, excuse me, you're killing lots of good soliders here, and not demonstrating that anyone other than the Old Narnians and the Telmarine lords are suffering under the current leadership. The people cheered just as loudly for Miraz as for Caspian. Problematic, to say the least, and slapping a label of 'fantasy battle' on it does not remove this problem.

In the book, Susan fires a warning shot. In the movie, she shoots the soldier on sight, when for all she knew he was legally executing a guilty prisoner (what made them think the dwarf was innocent, after all?) These are the types of situations that are often glossed over in movies, and I really wish people would rethink them - the good guys are only good if they are, well, good! They can make mistakes and be human, but if they commit a seriously evil act, someone should at least consider it a mistake - it isn't okay just because they're on the good side!

That's one of the things I love about Tolkien - he makes his plot work, but never sacrifices his characters to it. Aragorn does not take the expedient action, but goes on a wild goose chase to try to save Merry and Pippin. Forget the Ring, forget his throne, forget the war...he has to save two little hobbits. He has no help to send, so he goes himself.

Of course, it's a story - Tolkien can orchestrate fate and chance to make these types of decisions pay off, coincidentally or otherwise. But movies are stories, too, and I wish they'd think through consequences to character a bit more.


It took me awhile to get the hang of what was going on in the duel, but again, Hollywood does not understand ethics. If you are participating in a duel to the death, you are not a bad guy if you kill your opponent when he loses. But how many movies have we seen where the good guy shows mercy and just can't bring himself to kill the villain...only to have the villain killed immediately afterwards in some act of chance or treachery? (okay, so Tolkien does that too - with both Saruman and Gollum - but he has plenty of fate and mercy and prophecy to make it make sense!) Poetic justice is a beautiful thing, but instant karma can get a bit old.

I'm not upset with Peter or Caspian for hesitating. Both of them have good reasons to pause. His opponent has called respite, so Peter should (from the point of view of chivalry), grant it to him (even if Edmund the Just disagrees). And Caspian can't very well just execute his uncle in cold blood (he's not part of the duel). What bothers me is the suggestion that Miraz has a point - that if Caspian kills him, he's 'just like Miraz' because he killed a relative to get the throne. Caspian is the rightful heir to the throne, while Miraz is an usurper. This distinction matters, and they've practically wiped it away to say 'kinslaying is kinslaying.' If you accept this premise...then the Old Narnians don't have a leg to stand on in the subsequent battle. Instead of them fighting to get the true king on the throne, they're just fighting to get their king on the throne.

I realize it's not that simple. The Narnians are under attack - their choices are basically to fight or die. They're not given much of an option. They're defending their position, and they're underdogs. So, sympathy is generated appropriately. But to make them be right...well, the movie doesn't really bother with that. And that bothers me a bit. You can be cynical and argue that there is seldom a right side in a real war, and I will agree, but then you have to (as Frelga said), make at least some comments on the horrors of war.

As for the loss of the 'faith walk' Pearl - I think it was a timing issue more than anything. Aslan can't show up til the end. Peter and Caspian have to meet much earlier to have any time for character development in the movie. And so...they substituted the castle attack, where Lucy's decision to 'wait for Aslan' is contrasted with their decision to do something themselves. Lucy's conversation with Peter after the White Witch fiasco makes it clear that he's starting to understand what he's been doing wrong, and he comes around to her way of thinking. So, they still have that idea - just not that plot point. The 'Aslan icon' serves as a substitute, I suppose. I imagine that was the one single part left out that is most missed. I have not heard anyone complain that we didn't get to see Lucy and Susan liberate the captive school children and then dance with Bacchus' wild girls ;).


And Ben Barnes is a bit young for my tastes, but whatever makes you ladies happy :whistle: Just kidding, I agree that he is good looking and has a fun accent.
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Post by Crucifer »

I have not heard anyone complain that we didn't get to see Lucy and Susan liberate the captive school children and then dance with Bacchus' wild girls ;).
While I acknowledge that it would have been difficult to fit in, I still missed it a lot. I'm not complaining that it was taken out, because a lot of people 9especially people who hadn't read the book) may not have got that bit, but I think it was important to show that not all Telmarines were necessarily 'bad' Telmarines, but some had minds that were open to Old Narnia, and not just those who'd been tutored by semi dwarfs.
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Post by solicitr »

I have not heard anyone complain that we didn't get to see Lucy and Susan liberate the captive school children and then dance with Bacchus' wild girls
Ok, then I will. :D

I think Bacchus and the 'real' detruction of the bridge were essential- Lewis' gesture against regimentation and control, an appeal to 'reasonable' anarchy. Substituting a 'god' misses this entirely (and was a blatant FR ripoff).

I also wasn't crazy about the 'choreography' of the battle- it's too, too, too cliche in film to have the defenders prevail through some 'clever' preset trap. It's the bloody Disney Swiss Family Robinson all over. (and again, the introduction of - let's face it - Ents).
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

I agree that the absense of seeing real Telmarines (not just the leaders) is a weakness to the film. But I think that including Bacchus would be like including Tom Bombadil - there's almost no way to do it and have the viewers take the situation seriously. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a role in the story, just that he's difficult to portray on film. It's controversial enough to give kids weapons and send them into battle - getting them drunk would almost certainly bump up the rating. And out of curiousity, how is Bacchus not a god? ;)

I agree with you on the planned traps being 'cutesy' - but they were just following through with the 'line of fire' from the first movie. It was suffering from the idea that you have to ramp it up each time - the kind of thinking that led to Orli's shield-surfing at Helm's Deep and the Orliphant at the Pelennor.

And what's wrong with ents??? Don't they improve any story? :D
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Post by yovargas »

I've never read the books, didn't like the 1st movie, and didn't bother seeing the 2nd one so I have no emotional investment in this - I just find box office results interesting - but it looks like Prince Caspian was a bit of a flop: it had a huge $200M budget but, per BOX OFFICE MOJO, it's only grossed $139M so far and is already making less than $1M a week. Makes me wonder if they'll bother with the 3rd.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

The foreign grosses are more than that, though, putting it at $300 million, which means it may be enough by the end of its run. Plus, this is the kind of movie that does really well on DVD: family entertainment.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

The plans for the third movie are already underway. See Here It should be out in two years. So, they'll at least make that one. When Disney bought the rights to the books, they wanted to be able to make 7 movies out of them (just like Harry Potter), but I got the impression they hadn't really read them yet ;). So, they might only end up doing the 4 really 'filmable' books, like the old version from the 80's.

As for the current one, it opened a month later abroad, for whatever reason, so I expect the total box office number to be up by the end of the summer.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I agree they may stop at four. I don't see them being able to make and kind of a mass-market movie out of THE LAST BATTLE, and THE HORSE AND HIS BOY has too little to do with the other books. What's the third unfilmable one? THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW? THE SILVER CHAIR and THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER both seem to me to have great potential, unless I'm forgetting something major.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

The Magician's Nephew - it's not unfilmable, really, just more disconnected from the other stories. Very much a 'prequel'. I consider it and Last Battle to be bookends, so you wouldn't film one without the other. But perhaps I'm mistaken there. I do agree with your assessment that Last Battle, while being a cool book, would be hard to make a blockbuster movie out of. Tirian is probably one of my favorite Narnian characters.

The only problem with The Silver Chair is that there are no Pevensies and no Caspian. So, fewer returning characters (just Eustace and Aslan...and Jadis). The BBC made that their 4th and final Narnian story.

Horse and His Boy is also very disconnected - a wholly Narnian story, with no characters from Earth dropping in. Susan and Edward have cameos as grown up kings and queens of Narnia. But the plot involves escaping from an evil demon-worshipping culture...that is distinctly Muslim/Middle Eastern. That would require a serious overhaul not to be totally offensive.
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Post by WampusCat »

The absolute best thing about the BBC series was Tom Baker as Puddleglum in "The Silver Chair." :love: That could be a great movie, if done right. "The Magician's Nephew" has some very filmable scenes. And even "The Last Battle" could translate well, I think.

But I would rather not see even an attempt at "A Horse and His Boy." Of course, that was my least favorite of the series, followed by "Prince Caspian," which lost much of the awe of the first book (the first being "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe," since that's the only reasonable way to read them).

"The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" is my favorite, though, so I was delighted to see film-Reepicheep live up to my imagination!
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Post by Crucifer »

"The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" could go either way, I think. It's my personal favorite, so I'd be very disappointed if it wasn't good, but there's a lot that mightn't work well. The monopods would be great from a special effects point of view, but I don't think a lot of people would understand its relevance to the plot. I think it would be far too easy to rush through all the islands too.
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Yes, Puddleglum was done brilliantly in the BBC version, I agree. He's the only part of Silver Chair that I like, but with the actress they have for Jadis, I might suddenly find the Green Witch more interesting.

The Voyage of the Dawn-treader is my favorite, as well. I imagine they will pick and choose which islands to include, and possibly merge some together. Also, they are hardly above inventing their own adventures. Reepicheep won't be the only non-human Narnian on board, it seems. I think a lot of people like the book, while a lot of people found Prince Caspian merely a gap-filler. So, the stakes are higher for fans now. I will be less forgiving with wholesale alterations this time around, I think.


If they made 6 movies (so only cut one), I'd want to see Horse and his Boy cut as the most superfluous. I know some people like it, since it is a bit of an adventure story and all, but really...it's not necessary.

But if they can't make a decent profit on Silver Chair, I imagine they'll stop at 4.
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Post by Crucifer »

"The Horse and his Boy" has the least to do with the bigger picture, although it does give us an excellent insight into the Calormenes, so if they plan on doing the last battle, they'd have to leave "The Horse and his Boy" in. "The Silver Chair" really has very little at all to do with the bigger picture of Narnia, and is more of a fable than anything else. I suppose, they could leave it in because it has references to Caspian, so that'd give them a "Caspian Trilogy" for marketing purposes...
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Post by Padme »

I like this movie better than the first. But Prince Caspian has always been my favorite book of the series. I read the series as a child and always Prince Caspian was my favorite, I was going to marry him when I grew up and all that... :oops: :love: I would often combind Prince Caspian and Alice in Wonderland in my play, I was always Alice and I always ended up with the Hearts Kingdom married to Caspian. My cousin always made sure GI Joe would lead the army though.
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