On Singing

Post by **Alatar** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:23 am

I attended the Cork Choral festival myself many times. Mixed Voice Choir, School Level. A good number of firsts to our name, but I have to admit I remember the craic round the opera house far more fondly than the competitions we were there for. What's that pub just across the road from the side entrance again? Brilliant spot upstairs for singsongs from visiting choirs.

Post by **Crucifer** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:14 pm

Around the corner from City Hall or The Opera House?

There was one by City Hall called the Lobby which was a great place, but sadly is no longer with us...

Post by **Alatar** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:25 pm

Ah, yeah. It was City Hall, not the Opera House.

Post by **Crucifer** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:19 pm

Definitely the Lobby then. It changed management and is more of a 'young peoples pub' if you know what I mean. No more spontaneous trad sessions etc.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:19 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:...and sing solos that aren't about coal mining

Or getting a little drunk and landing in jail.

Post by **Alatar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:12 pm

Interesting. I've always heard it as "Coloured Folk work on the Mississippi", this older version has "Darkies all work on the Mississippi" and the original work had "N*****s all work on the Mississippi".

Its a question I've pondered before. When we're looking at a period in history where the word was in common usage, should we alter it for political correctness?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:22 pm

I'd change the N-word in a performance of the song. It really is deeply offensive, and in a song there isn't enough context to make clear that it isn't meant offensively but is used for historical accuracy. (By contrast, there is enough context in Huckleberry Finn, in many people's view.)

Post by **Alatar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:31 pm

To be clear, I wasn't referring to the song, but the entire musical "Showboat".

Its interesting, there's a sort of PC gone mad here regarding anything that could be even vaguely considered racist. Its getting increasingly difficult to put on shows like Showboat or Ragtime, because its considered offensive to "black up" a white actor with makeup. I don't understand this. Why was it not offensive for me to play a Russian Jew in Fiddler, but it would be offensive for me to play a Negro Slave in Showboat?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:57 pm

I would guess because "blackface" was used mainly for grossly racist humor back in its day, and the surviving "blackface" art from that era was pretty racist, too. I don't know if it even existed in Ireland, but it was mainstream in America.

You in blackface would not be able to help looking something like those old films and photos. There's a whole layer of unpleasant history that is not there when you play a Frenchman or a Russian Jew.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:33 am

Alatar wrote:I've always heard it as "Coloured Folk work on the Mississippi", this older version has "Darkies all work on the Mississippi" and the original work had "N*****s all work on the Mississippi".

I've heard recent recordings where they've changed it to "We all work...". Prim is quite right about blackface. Wasn't it Ted Danson who donned blackface for a roast of Whoopy Goldberg, those roasts are typically horribly offensive, and wound up being (nearly literally) roasted himself?

There's a line in 'The Magic Flute' where Sarastro tells Monostatos that his heart is as black as his face. (Monostatos is Sarastro's Moorish overseer.) He doesn't say, and I don't think it's implied that he tells Monostatos that his soul is black because his face is, but it seems to be treated that way nowadays. Some productions take great pains to remove any hint of racism by turning Monostatos into some kind of alien being, or in the case of the production I saw in San Francisco in 2007, a grotesque oompa loompa.

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:49 am

Primula Baggins wrote:I would guess because "blackface" was used mainly for grossly racist humor back in its day, and the surviving "blackface" art from that era was pretty racist, too. I don't know if it even existed in Ireland, but it was mainstream in America.

You in blackface would not be able to help looking something like those old films and photos. There's a whole layer of unpleasant history that is not there when you play a Frenchman or a Russian Jew.

Actually, the makeup now is very good and a white person in black makeup looks very much like a "Natural" African American. The makeup used tends to be more coffee coloured rather than "black". Also, I guess through the years our features have become more "homogenised" (if thats the right word) so that there isn't a clear difference in bone structure etc.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:12 am

Alatar wrote:Actually, the makeup now is very good and a white person in black makeup looks very much like a "Natural" African American. The makeup used tends to be more coffee coloured rather than "black".

Like Robert Downey, Jr. in 'Tropic Thunder'? IIRC he wore a wig, and tried to emulate an African American voice and dialect. Even still, he looked a white guy in makeup and wig. His voice wasn't convincing, either. Of course his movie character was a white actor playing a black character, so maybe some of the shortfalls were intended for comedic value.

Alatar wrote:Also, I guess through the years our features have become more "homogenised" (if thats the right word) so that there isn't a clear difference in bone structure etc.

Well, yes and no. I've heard it said that the majority of African-Americans in the U.S. have some percentage of European ancestry. Many prominent African-Americans, such as actress Halle Berry, have one white parent and one black parent, but does that make them the norm or "average" of African-Americans in the U.S.? No, I don't think so. Just like those of European descent, those of African descent come in many different sizes, shapes, and colors. I'd really can't say that there is one typical African-American look, or that the features of most African-American and European-Americans have become homogenized. We're not Betty Crocker.

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:15 pm

Thats not really what I was trying to suggest. Just that a white person with the skin colour of an African American wouldn't look "wrong".

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:53 pm

It would depend upon who that white person was. With my straight (when cut short) hair and big blue eyes I definitely would look wrong.

On second thought they have brown contact lenses, don't they? No, I have to think I'd still look wrong.

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:55 pm

Well, would you look any less African American than I looked Jewish Russian as Tevye? Its acting after all, I'm portraying a person other than myself. That's the whole point of theatre.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:56 pm

In my opinion, yes, but to a Russian Jew perhaps not. And you're absolutely right about acting and theatre.

I hope I wasn't too terribly frustrating, Alatar. That certainly was not my intent.

I thought more about what you had written, and what point you were trying to make, and I think I may have gotten it. Your point about today's make-up techniques is that they are vastly superior to those employed in the 19th and early 20th century when minstrel shows and "black face" were en vogue. Is that right? If so, that is certainly true. On the other hand, I don't think minstrel shows were trying to fool anyone into thinking the performers were actually African-American. In some instances it was parody, in others outright ridicule, but I think other artists had a genuine appreciation and affection for the music created by African-Americans. (I believe that Stephen Foster, known for such popular tunes as 'Camptown Races', 'Way Down Upon the Swanee River', and 'Old Black Joe' is an example of the latter.)