Math or Maths

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:12 am

Crucifer wrote:
My theory is that it's for the same reason that you say "Three miles is long walk". English seems to see sums of all kinds as units, and hence singular
Actually, the is there refers to the walk, not the three miles.

Actually not, Crucifer. "Three miles" is indeed the subject of that sentence and of the verb "is."

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:21 am

Hehe - see, Mahima trusts me!

But...

You...you don't mean to say that you all don't eat mayonnaise with your chips?

Ah, me, I am fallen among the barbarians, and I didn't even know until now!

Chips (or fries, for the US) with ketchup and mayo (or chips red'n white, as we say here) are teh bestest!11 - I see my task is set up for me: introduce the world to the one true way of serving chips...

Actually, the is there refers to the walk, not the three miles.

Actually, no, "three miles" is the subject of the sentence, "a long walk" is the object. (Sorry, I forgot the "a" - so, in fact, my sentence wasn't grammatical at all.

)
Normally, subject and verb have to agree in number, so you'd expect "Three miles are a long walk." It's just an oddity of the English language that a singular verb is used here - it is seen as a unit rather than as 'three' of 'miles'.

ETA: cross-posted with Prim

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:31 am

Crucifer, I should warn you that you have fallen into a den of writers, editors, and English teachers. And lawyers. Lawyers everywhere you look.

Raise a grammatical question, start parsing a sentence, and we come swarming like piranhas and suddenly the subject is grammar, etymology, comparative sentence structures, interlanguage variations in syntax, the history of dictionaries, which grammatical rules are optional, what are the best reference books. . . .

No thread is safe. At least until Voronwë comes along, rolls his eyes, and patiently splits off yet another new thread full of grammatical nitpickery where we can carry on like gulls squabbling over a pile of dead crabs without disturbing the people who, you know, rather wanted to talk about something else.

But, hey, it's fun.

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:36 am

without disturbing the people who, you know, rather wanted to talk about something else.

You mean, there are such?

But, you know, this thread is about a language quibble...
So, I guess it's talking about how to eat your chips that's the osgiliation.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:40 am

Mayonnaise.

I'll have to give it a try. We do ketchup but never mayonnaise, at least in the western U.S.

Mayonnaise is not considered a sauce; it's a sandwich lubricant and a solvent for canned tuna.

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:53 am

it's a sandwich lubricant and a solvent for canned tuna.

I don't think we'd ever use it for either of those.
Apart from dipping chips/fries in it, it's the basis for pasta salads, potato salads, that sort of thing. And it's the basis for dips for meat at barbecues or in fondues.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:00 am

Oh, I guess we do use it in dips (although sour cream is more common) and as part of a salad dressing.

You mean Germans don't eat tuna salad? Entire wars have been fought over tuna salad, at least in school lunchrooms: How much mayonnaise? And do you stir up the tuna and mayo until it's a smooth paste, or do you leave chunks of tuna? And do you put in sweet-pickle relish or chunks of celery or bits of raw onion?

And when you go to someone else's house for lunch, their mom always makes the weirdest possible choices among these options—the ones least like what you (and your mom) would call tuna salad.

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:22 am

You mean Germans don't eat tuna salad?

Nope, or, hardly.
Certainly not tuna salad as in, just tuna with sauce (as it sounds from your post). You may have tuna as part of different recipes, it's occasionally added to mixed salads etc - but we don't eat it much. Normally it comes canned in oil, but even if not it's pretty juicy as it is, and I can't imagine at all that it goes together with mayonnaise.

And tuna's got a bad rep, too, it's not an environmentally friendly thing to eat.

I guess we'll have a job trying to convert each other to our respective traditional foods when we meet!

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:27 am

Aw, gee, I was gonna make sauerbraten.

Most tuna bought over here is canned in water, and you squeeze the water out. So then it's too dry to eat, so you add mayonnaise.

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:38 am

Hehe - well, surely, tuna salad isn't a main course - let's have the Sauerbraten first, and the tuna salad later.

I'll try tuna with mayonnaise if you try fries with mayonnaise!

(This is all making me so much more impatient to get over there - I'm wondering, for example, if it's possible there are these differences because your mayonnaise isn't at all like ours - so I just want to go there and find out NOW!

)

But, hmmh, this has been a first class osgiliation...

...how to get back on topic?
I know: it's always "Sauerbraten", no 's' at the end.

So, if you can't decide whether to say math or maths, you can talk about Sauerbraten instead.

Post by **baby tuckoo** » Sat May 26, 2007 3:53 am

Crucifer wrote:
My theory is that it's for the same reason that you say "Three miles is long walk". English seems to see sums of all kinds as units, and hence singular
Actually, the is there refers to the walk, not the three miles.

*Rubs little hands together*

So, my Cruz, you like discussions of (cough*/cough*) grammar? Words? Plunkery?

*pours a cognac*

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 6:57 am

truehobbit wrote:(This is all making me so much more impatient to get over there - I'm wondering, for example, if it's possible there are these differences because your mayonnaise isn't at all like ours - so I just want to go there and find out NOW! )

I want you to get over here, too, because one of the options for your Oregon stay is ROAD TRIP! From the biggest new and used bookstore on the planet to the deepest lake entirely above sea level, and a whole mess of stuff in between including about two wineries a day, sound about right?

And, of course, we can discuss grammar the whole time.

Post by **Crucifer** » Sat May 26, 2007 11:28 am

My theory is that it's for the same reason that you say "Three miles is long walk". English seems to see sums of all kinds as units, and hence singular
Actually, the is there refers to the walk, not the three miles.

Actually not, Crucifer. "Three miles" is indeed the subject of that sentence and of the verb "is."

K. firstly, Three miles is a long walk is a sentence fragment. The correct sentence is "A walk of three miles is a long walk" so is refers to the walk.

*Rubs little hands together*

So, my Cruz, you like discussions of (cough*/cough*) grammar? Words? Plunkery?

*pours a cognac*

Is that a threatening post I see...

i may have to

do this to you, to see if it is idle or not...

I hate mayonaisse... But over here, you can get 'pink sauce'. which is... Ketchup and Mayonaisse mixed together!!!

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 2:57 pm

Crucifer, "miles" is a plural noun and is thus a perfectly good subject for a sentence. "Three miles is a long walk" is a complete and correct sentence, not a sentence fragment. I see where you're coming from, but it's not actually right. (I do have some basis for saying this—I've been an editor for twenty years.)

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat May 26, 2007 5:02 pm

Primula Baggins wrote: I want you to get over here, too, because one of the options for your Oregon stay is ROAD TRIP! From the biggest new and used bookstore on the planet to the deepest lake entirely above sea level, and a whole mess of stuff in between including about two wineries a day, sound about right?

*swoons*

And, of course, we can discuss grammar the whole time.

*swoons some more*

But over here, you can get 'pink sauce'. which is... Ketchup and Mayonaisse mixed together!!!

Well, that seems as if you guys in Ireland are on the right way to enlightenment...

Three miles is a long walk is a sentence fragment.

As Prim said, it's not, really, but I agree it's an odd sentence (although it has a subject, a verb and an object and is therefore a perfectly complete sentence) - but you don't have to change the subject (as you did in your example) to make it sound more complete; if you want to make it more complete, how about: "Three miles is a long way to walk." or "Three miles is a lot, if you try hopping backwards on one leg all the way."

Post by **Alatar** » Sat May 26, 2007 6:04 pm

Hm. Mayo with Chips/Fries? Only if its Garlic Mayo, or Garlic Chips as we call them here...

Post by **baby tuckoo** » Sat May 26, 2007 6:40 pm

There is nothing at all wrong with "Three miles is a long walk." The singularity of the verb is easier to grok if you recognize "walk" as a predicative nominative. Thus it should complement the subject (=, if you will.) "Walk" doesn't equal "miles", but it does equal "three miles", which should be considered a collective noun, like "family".

We don't say "That nice young couple from church are coming over for tea." No, that couple is a single entity. Though if we mean them as individuals, it is different: "A couple of my friends are coming over for sex."

To get back on topic . . . In Spanish, the field is known always as "las matematicas" and is treated as a plural noun when choosing a verb: Las matematicas son muy dificiles. The same is true for "vacation", even a single one: La semana que viene, estoy de vacaciones.

Sacramento is a civilized place. City ordinances do not allow the mixing of ketchup and mayonaisse. They cannot even be stored on the same shelf, much less spread on the same sandwich. Oh sure, there are some people who, in the privacy of their homes, make the occasional "pink" condiment for personal application to potato or bread, but they are careful about whom they invite to share this and they certainly don't brag about it at work the next day. In general, the police don't aggressively pursue these private "pinksters", but each year you read about how respected members of the community must bear the public stigma when an officer while on other business sees a bowl of the forbidden sauce out on a table for "dipping." When the news becomes public, neighbors often come at night and paint the "dipper's" mailbox pink. In the end, it's a guilt we all share.

Post by **baby tuckoo** » Sat May 26, 2007 6:42 pm

Alatar wrote: Only if its Garlic Mayo, or Galrlic Chips as we call them here...

Is that because they are popular near Galway Bay? Just don't ask me to pronounce it.

Post by **Alatar** » Sat May 26, 2007 8:09 pm

No idea what you're talking about.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat May 26, 2007 8:09 pm

Aaand just to confuse the grammatical issue (distracted though I am by the thought of French fries with aioli), Crucifer would say quite correctly (for his neck of the woods) that "the couple are coming over for tea." According to my references, collective nouns take the plural in British usage. "The government have responded," "Exxon-Mobil have been accused," "The BBC decline to comment," etc.

At least, that's definitely one of the things I eradicate in my de-Britification editing jobs.