Math or Maths

[baby tuckoo]

Actually, no, "three miles" is the subject of the sentence, "a long walk" is the object.

Hobby, linking verbs (like "is") can't have objects. They can have PA's and PN's, but not DO's or IO's. In the dead crab we have chosen to squabble over at the moment, "walk" is a PN, a complement, not an object. That's partly why "three miles" can be considered singular.



I like Galrlic. 'Tis Tolkienesque, master Alatar. He was one of the rogue kings back before the beginning. He wanted to be known as Galrlic the Great, but nobody would agree to call him that, for he was only okay.


Yes, Prim, I'm aware of this perverse Brittanic practice. It would put a very different spin on "A couple of my friends is coming over for sex." That too is perverse, and not in a casual, linguistic way.

[truehobbit]

Hm. Mayo with Chips/Fries? Only if its Garlic Mayo, or Garlic Chips as we call them here...

*sigh* Another one to convert. And to think we only talked in person two months ago, when I could have brought some mayonnaise for us to spread on the chips. What a lost opportunity!

Aaand just to confuse the grammatical issue (distracted though I am by the thought of French fries with aioli), Crucifer would say quite correctly (for his neck of the woods) that "the couple are coming over for tea." According to my references, collective nouns take the plural in British usage. "The government have responded," "Exxon-Mobil have been accused," "The BBC decline to comment," etc.

Primmy, I wasn't aware it was a Brit./US usage difference.
Yes, collective nouns tend to be plural, but (AFAIK) you can choose whether to use a plural or singular with them (except for 'police', because they never come alone ) - so I didn't think there'd be geographically different preferences.

This bit is rather fun to teach because it drives students crazy.
"Government" (and other collective nouns) looks singular, but can be singular or plural.
"Politics" (and other school subjects) looks plural, but is singular.
"Glasses" (and other 2-in-1 words) looks plural, and is plural, but still denotes just one object.

(Fortunately for me, though, I never need to explain grammatical background - that's why I'm a bit shaky there. )

Hobby, linking verbs (like "is") can't have objects. They can have PA's and PN's, but not DO's or IO's. In the dead crab we have chosen to squabble over at the moment, "walk" is a PN, a complement, not an object. That's partly why "three miles" can be considered singular.

Ooooh, ok - sorry about that!
I knew it wasn't a direct or indirect object, but I thought it had to be some kind of object nevertheless.

(Still not sure what PN and PA stand for - my guess is: noun phrase and adverbial phrase, though why that's not NP or AP is beyond me.)

[Primula Baggins]

PN and PA = predicate noun and predicate adjective.

<brushes dust off formal grammatical education> The predicate is, I believe, everything in the sentence after the subject.

PN: pedant in "Prim is a pedant."

PA: pedantic in "Prim is pedantic."

as opposed to object of a verb:

Prim in "They trouted Prim soundly."

[Crucifer]

This grammatical stuff is going waaaay over my head. I'm no editor...

[truehobbit]

Oooh, alright. Thanks.

*sigh* I really need to brush up my grammatical education. (Not that there ever was very much of it.)

Hmmh, in German "Prädikat" just means the function of the verb in a sentence. (I.e. "trouted" in "They trouted Prim soundly.")
Maybe it's just because we use the word differently, but everything after the subject?
I can understand when there's only "is", the whole part that follows belongs to the verb.
I'm fine with the first two examples: in "Prim is a pedant", "pedant" is the noun belonging to the verb, so it's a predicate noun, the whole phrase forming the predicate.
But if it's everything, then the object in the last example would be the predicate, too...


Five minutes later:
Ok, I looked it up (the German word), and wikipedia says it's both: the verb or verb phrase as a sentence function or everything after the subject. (Just didn't want to delete the whole train of thought above that I'd already written. )
to Prim.


Edited because I also read carelessly. I need some sleep.

[Crucifer]

The Crucifer Concise, Precise and Excised Dictionary of wordy language type things defines grammar as: 1. A subject which only very clever or very annoying language teachers/speakers get involved in.
2. the study of above.
3. a common name in Eastern Antartica.
4. A breed of fish, commonly used as a meaning for random words.

[truehobbit]

1. A subject which only very clever or very annoying language teachers/speakers get involved in.

Well, in our case it's only the first.

Here's a definition from the truehobbit encyclopedic dictionary:

annoying, adj.
Causing vexation or irritation; troublesome

used of people who, when others are enjoying something they don't take part in, complain instead of just letting the others enjoy in peace

[Crucifer]

The CCPED defines annoying as
annoying: 1. Anyone who disagrees with me
2. Anyone who does this to me
3. Mr... oops. Can't say the name in case he finds out... Let us call him Mr. L!!!

[truehobbit]

I think our dictionaries might agree to some extent, Crucifer, except that mine, being encyclopedic, gives a long explanation of what kind of poke is considered really harassing and what is harmless fun.

[Crucifer]

And the second!!!

[truehobbit]

I edited my post, I'm afraid, but I don't understand what you're talking about, even with respect to what I'd written first.

[Crucifer]

Yes. It's all sorted out. Mine, Being a Dictionary by me, has the lost Book of JIM in it... Now THERE is something I must post... *Toddles off to find it*

[baby tuckoo]

The Crucifer Concise, Precise and Excised Dictionary of wordy language type things defines grammar as: 1. A subject which only very clever or very annoying language teachers/speakers get involved in.

bt is annoying, whereas Prim is clever. bt puts on his annoying tweed jacket and thin rim glasses.



Grammar, my dear Crucifer, is a subject with which we are all involved in, like it or not. True, a native speaker is communicative whether or not he is grammatical in the formal rules of his language. And many clever speakers/writers acquire those formal rules without formal training. This is well and good.


A level of usage and practice exists, however, that we call Standard Academic English. (The equivalent exists in most linguistic cultures.) Reputable schools at the college and secondary levels expect any formal document to observe these practices. For that reason, a body of specialists springs up for the purpose of precise observation, much like the amorphous field of clinical psychology in which the terminology and the pathology are constantly changing with the culture.


I find this funny: most people consider themselves amateur psychologists and amateur grammarians. They might not cop to it, but most folk will fight for their evaluation of another's mental condition or for another's mode of expression. Few can resist the urge to judge these things about others. Yet many express disdain for professionals in those fields.


Not in the sense that makes one laugh, but I find this funny.


Mr. L.

[Crucifer]

The CCPE is a spoof, you know that don't you? I was joking...
And Mr. L is a teacher in my school, who gives the most irritating speeches

Even when I'm wrong, I'm right

[baby tuckoo]

Of course it was a spoof. And a good one. It is fairly difficult to offend baby tuckoo. No offense taken whatsoever.


In real life, I am also Mr. L and I teach Spanish and English. And no doubt in the opinion of some I give irritating speeches, though I'd never say something like the above quote. I reward any student who can catch me in an error of fact.


Part of my persona here is to be an annoying child. I'm proud of my accomplishments. Have you chatted with vison yet, Cruc? Now there is an annoying adult.

[Crucifer]

It is fairly difficult to offend baby tuckoo.

Is that a challenge?
My Mr. L teaches Music and R.E.

[baby tuckoo]

R.E. ?


Rhetorical Expression?


Royal English?


Religious Education?



Righteous Endignation?

Is that a challenge?

A challenge my students accept on a daily basis.

[Primula Baggins]

<blanches at the thought of Crucifer seeking something that will offend bt>

<blanches anew at the thought of what might offend bt>

Let's not go there, pretty please.

R.E. is obviously

• Relative Elongation
  
  Real Estate
  
  Rare Earth
  
  Rotary Engine
  
  Recursively Enumerable

[baby tuckoo]

<blanches anew at the thought of what might offend bt>

Certainly nothing that a Thaine or Sherrif wouldn't catch well before I saw it, and maybe not even then.

[Primula Baggins]

But would we even get it?



Plus, last time I looked the oubliette was backed up again.