Pride and Prejudice: Adaptations of Austen

[SilverScribe]

And a "skreen" is a screen. Some editions preserve more of Austen's spelling than others.

I had forgotten about that, I'm sure folks must wonder why I'm gritting my teeth every few pages. Spellings like "chuse" and "shewed" are about driving me crazy. Funny, they didn't the last time I read this, maybe it was a different edition with more modern spelling in it.

[Ethel]

I am finding this book rather humorous.

I'm glad to hear it. Because... it's a comedy. Though not without its dark notes.

And a "skreen" is a screen. Some editions preserve more of Austen's spelling than others.

I had forgotten about that, I'm sure folks must wonder why I'm gritting my teeth every few pages. Spellings like "chuse" and "shewed" are about driving me crazy. Funny, they didn't the last time I read this, maybe it was a different edition with more modern spelling in it.

Try to let it pass over you, Scribbles. Austen knew how to spell, but English spelling had not quite settled on the final versions yet.

[Cerin]

Well, caught up through Chapter 8 after a few days of fruitcake baking (which seems appropriately English).

I had to read Chapter 5 twice to keep track of who was speaking to and about whom. Their conversations are so ... I don't know how to put it ... frank, I suppose, about being, well, nosy. 'Minding one's own business' doesn't seem to have been a value; in fact, wouldn't they have expired of boredom if they'd had to mind their own business? That seems to have been the substance of their lives; which I don't necessarily say is a bad thing, just different from the way we live today (in some places) detached from our neighbors' lives.

It struck me that I began to confuse the author's revelations into character with what the characters themselves were supposed to know. So that this from the beginning of Chapter 6:

Miss Bennet's pleasing manners grew on the good-will of Mrs. Hurst and Miss Bingley; and though the mother was found to be intolerable, and the younger sisters no worth speaking to, a wish of being better acquainted with them was expressed towards the two eldest.

struck me as appallingly cruel until I realized that that attitude wouldn't have been announced by Mrs. Hurst and Miss Bingley to Mrs. Bennet and the yonger daughters (as it was to me).

I was really pleased to learn the word 'complacency', which doesn't seem to have as its first meaning, the state of being complacent (in the irritating, self-satisfied sense).

Poor Mary! What an unflinching and unsparing assessment of her character. I am so wanting at this point, not to be like Mary and to more be like Elizabeth.

I found the conversation about love and marriage between Elizabeth and Charlotte at the beginning of Chapter 6 to be so interesting. I suppose it's really the same sort of conflict between attraction and practical concerns that people face today when deciding whether to pair up. How true is this?:

If the disposition of the parties are ever so well known to each other, or ever so similar beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life.

I don't think I agree with the last part, though; that is, best to know as much about the defects before the fact (so as to inform the decision), but as little afterwards.

I continue to be taken aback by Lizzy's self-confidence, although I suppose they were raised so as to be able to hold their own in these intimate yet super-structured encounters. Still, her ability to confront Darcy after experiencing his rejection is just superb.

Miss Bingley is definitely not recommending herself to me! (Whereas just the opposite with Mr. Bingley.)

Poor Jane! Sent out in the rain. I hope she isn't going to die!

I loved the fuss over Elizabeth walking, and the varied descriptions of the benefits to her complexion, from the exercise.

I'm finding this writing to be extremely rich with meaning, wonderfully satisfying to read and as I believe Ethel said, very elegant. And it is so nice to be getting the added background knowledge -- as about dancing and wine -- which I would be ignorant of if I were not reading this in such excellent company. I'm glad I'm reading an edition with modernized spellings.

Regarding Padme's comment about Mr. Bennet's attitude towards his children, yes, it's rather appalling in the sense that he doesn't seem to be trying to salvage or improve them in any way, merely observing that he finds them deplorably silly and foolish.

[TIGG]

Cerin. exactly


It is so ....nosey...but we know the other party is unaware.

I love it, but I hate it all at the same time. It is so frank, but thank goodness I'm not the recipient

Austen is COMEDY at its finest, unsuspecting, honest, innocent.

[Alatar]

I have read the assignment, but not any of the other opinions on it.

As to style, I very much enjoy Austen's prose but I find her conversations difficult to follow when there are more than two people involved. Since the characters (for the most part) are difficult to differentiate between on the speech patterns alone I often found myself attempting to discern from the flow of the conversation who was speaking. On a number of occasions I had to backtrack because I had guessed incorrectly.

I'm starting to dislike Mrs. Bennet quite strongly and I'm finding Elizabeth to be a genuinely wonderful character. Darcy is impressing me in other ways. It's not that he's any less high handed that he first appeared. I was expecting a sort of "heart of gold" revelation, but he has not changed his character. He is simply finding (much to his annoyance I think) that his attraction to Lizzie can't be denied while his pride would wish it otherwise. As such, rather than admit his snobbishness and that of his Sisters, he is attempting to justify her behaviour as somehow more "fitting" than it is. In short, he's making excuses for her, rather than admitting his own arrogance.

I like that in a guy

It seems strange that Austen writes women so cattily. It seems to me that the Men are so far coming out better than the Women in her estimation. In fact the men seem to echo her own opinions on the character of the women.

I am enjoying the book so far, and I admit to being worried for Jane. A cold can easily become pneumonia and in the period we're looking at and I have no confidence that her recovery is guaranteed.

Lizzie is fabulous, by the way.

[Ethel]

I have so enjoyed reading the comments of Padme, Cerin and Alatar. I thank you for a rare pleasure. I first read P&P at about 14 - much too young - and I can't say I really liked it all that much. I had read and loved Jane Eyre about a year before, and was looking for more of the same sort. Well, Jane Eyre is suffused with the kind of passions that speak to the adolescent heart, but P&P is a very different animal. I did not learn to love it until I reread it at about 20. Since then I have read it over and over, at two- or three-year intervals. My very familiarity with the book makes your first impressions a particular delight. Some responses:

Padme...

Chapter 8 is something. I am feeling a bit sorry for Elizabeth staying there taking care of Jane and the cattiness of the other women. Like walking three miles is a bad thing.

And what’s up with Mr. Bennet and his distaste with his own kids...

Walking three miles is something Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst have probably never done. They certainly wouldn't dream of doing it in the mud. This combination of affection and energy in Elizabeth is very appealing to the modern reader. I wonder if some of Austen's contemporaries, though, might not have agreed with the other ladies.


Cerin...

Their conversations are so ... I don't know how to put it ... frank, I suppose, about being, well, nosy. 'Minding one's own business' doesn't seem to have been a value; in fact, wouldn't they have expired of boredom if they'd had to mind their own business? That seems to have been the substance of their lives; which I don't necessarily say is a bad thing, just different from the way we live today (in some places) detached from our neighbors' lives.

Yes, I know what you mean. But I think it's very hard for us to imagine the lives of the country gentry. They had no work to do; this was an important 'signifier' of their class. And in the country they did not have the constant social round of the London 'season'. What else had they to do except talk about their neighbors? (In between covering skreens and whatnot... )

Poor Mary! What an unflinching and unsparing assessment of her character. I am so wanting at this point, not to be like Mary and to more be like Elizabeth.

Austen had an unsparing eye, didn't she? Poor Mary indeed: the only plain one in a family of beauties, and everyone rolling their eyes at all her hard-won accomplishments. The author was not kind to her. But Austen was not kind. She once wrote to her sister Cassandra: "Mrs. Hall of Sherbourn was brought to bed yesterday of a dead child, some weeks before she expected, owing to a fright -- I suppose she happened unawares to look at her husband." This was a private letter, and Jane and Cassandra were very close, but still... one sees just how cutting her wit could be.

The Bennet household is not an altogether happy one, is it? Mr. Bennet disapproves of his younger daughters but he doesn't seem to have exerted himself in any way to improve them.


Alatar...

As to style, I very much enjoy Austen's prose but I find her conversations difficult to follow when there are more than two people involved. Since the characters (for the most part) are difficult to differentiate between on the speech patterns alone I often found myself attempting to discern from the flow of the conversation who was speaking. On a number of occasions I had to backtrack because I had guessed incorrectly.

I can't recall ever having that problem, but I've read the book so many times now that I'm not a fair comparison. Several of you have mentioned this so I'm inclined to see it as a valid criticism. Perhaps Austen found the "she saids" tiresome to write...

Darcy is impressing me in other ways. It's not that he's any less high handed that he first appeared. I was expecting a sort of "heart of gold" revelation, but he has not changed his character. He is simply finding (much to his annoyance I think) that his attraction to Lizzie can't be denied while his pride would wish it otherwise. As such, rather than admit his snobbishness and that of his Sisters, he is attempting to justify her behaviour as somehow more "fitting" than it is. In short, he's making excuses for her, rather than admitting his own arrogance.

I like that in a guy

Nicely said! I love the little scene at the Lucas's, where Sir William tries to get Darcy to dance with Lizzie and she refuses. Lizzie remembers perfectly well that Darcy once found her not pretty enough to dance with; Darcy seems to have forgotten. There is a delicious irony in Elizabeth's smiling remark, "Mr. Darcy is all politeness."

It seems strange that Austen writes women so cattily. It seems to me that the Men are so far coming out better than the Women in her estimation. In fact the men seem to echo her own opinions on the character of the women.

Well, but Austen clearly thinks well of Jane, Elizabeth and Charlotte. I think it's quite likely that in real life, Austen found many of her female acquaintance to be gratingly thoughtless and ill-educated.

Lizzie is fabulous, by the way.

She is, isn't she? Austen herself once wrote of Elizabeth, "I think her as delightful a creature as ever appeared in print." (Austen was not one for false modesty.)


Miscellaneous comments...

Things I have learned, drinking a bottle of wine a day is not a good idea.

Especially since the "wine" in question was port or madeira or sherry—fortified stuff, about 20% alcohol, so drinking a whole bottle was like polishing off half a bottle of liquor a day. "Regular" wine from France or Spain was embargoed because of the Napoleonic wars and had been for so long that people disdained it when it was offered ("watery claret").

I had not thought of that, but it makes perfect sense. One could hardly receive regular shipments of claret when one was at war with France. I imagine the cellars of Pemberley were well stocked, but that would probably only have been true for the great houses.


I love the irony of Mrs. Bennet's remark to Lady Lucas concerning Darcy's arrogance: " But I can guess how it was; every body says that he is ate up with pride, and I dare say he had heard somehow that Mrs. Long does not keep a carriage, and had come to the ball in a hack chaise." Um, pot? Meet kettle.


I also love Darcy's cool, polite indifference to the heated attentions of Caroline Bingley. Much comedy there.

[truehobbit]

I haven't yet said thanks for the great posts and info on the dancing manners of the period - thanks, all!

I also liked everybody's reactions and thoughts very much - I found myself nodding in agreement a lot!

In short, he's making excuses for her, rather than admitting his own arrogance.

Can't say I like that, but it's a good observation, I think.
So, not to be annoying, but - what do you like about that character trait?

I often found myself attempting to discern from the flow of the conversation who was speaking. On a number of occasions I had to backtrack because I had guessed incorrectly.

I had the same problem in chapter 8! I wonder whether at the time it would have been clearer who spoke - maybe there were some indicators whose turn it was that have been lost, just like the rules on dancing.

[Sister Magpie]

In short, he's making excuses for her, rather than admitting his own arrogance.

I like that in a guy

LOL! And he just gets better/worse.

It seems strange that Austen writes women so cattily. It seems to me that the Men are so far coming out better than the Women in her estimation. In fact the men seem to echo her own opinions on the character of the women.

I remember reading some of her notes once, like responses that she'd gotten from people she gave her stories to to read, and some made it so clear that the people she knew were just as wacky as the people she wrote about.

It's funny you should say that about the men because my father doesn't like JA and always said this was because she didn't write men. He just could never relate to any of her male characters; they just seemed unreal next to the girls.

About the nosiness of the characters, you can't help but think that if Mrs. Bennet were alive today she'd simply talk about celebrities and TV all the time. Instead the only "shows" they have to watch are the people in the neighborhood. It's a strange connection to Mr. Bennet, who has responded to his disappointing marriage by treating the whole thing like his personal reality show that he watches and does nothing to improve. He considers Lizzie his favorite character, but won't even get involved when she wants him to.

I love Lizzie's showing up at the Bingley's and the fuss she causes there.

-m

[Padme]

I had to read Chapter 5 twice to keep track of who was speaking to and about whom

Yeah...I'm not the only one having to figure out who is who.

[SilverScribe]

Well, I finished my re-read a day or two ago, time has definitely not dulled my enjoyment of this book.

I'll try and catch up with everyone's comments when I get home, I'm sneaking in from work just now . . . BAD SCRIBE!

[truehobbit]

Hmmh - are we on holiday break?

[Cerin]

Sorry, for my part! I have been too busy with Christmas preparations to do my reading, but I should be able to pick up again shortly and after that, to keep a more even pace.

Questions swirling in my head:

Will Jane die?

Will Darcy be knocked off his high horse?

Will Elizabeth tell the catty Bingley women to soak their heads?

Will her daughters' untimely coughing continue to fray Mrs. Bennet's frail 'nerves'? (I see that we appear to lack the eye-roll emoticon.)

Will Mr. Bennet continue to insult the lesser Bennets with such subtelty that they fail to notice?

[truehobbit]

But - I don't know in how far you're joking, but whenever I've read something by Austen I hadn't seen on screen before, it was a real page-turner for me! I never had the feeling it was a foregone conclusion who would marry whom and whether things would end happily.

[Cerin]

Oh, I'm not joking at all, even though I have seen a screen version of P&P. For one thing, I don't remember most of the particulars; for another, we all know from recent experience that seeing something on screen doesn't necessarily mean one has a clue as to what is going to happen in the book.

It looks like I missed the eye-roller (but I looked so carefully!).

[truehobbit]

Well, it's in another place, so it might be missed - it's the one that came with phpbber, which is a bit different from the one we are used to, but I didn't notice that at first, so I thought might as well leave it.

we all know from recent experience that seeing something on screen doesn't necessarily mean one has a clue as to what is going to happen in the book.

Excellent point!

I remember with Emma, for example, that I had an idea of who Emma should get hooked up with in the end from very early on - but during the book Austen very successfully kept leading me into thinking it might turn out differently.

[Cerin]

Sorry to have left this so long, I hope everyone will join back in! Once again there seemed to be a natural break after four chapters, so my comments cover Chapters 9-12. There is so much wonderfully funny stuff worked into these chapters. It struck me that Ms. Austen's writing is like champagne (and those sparkling witticisms can sting a bit when going up the nose!).

About the nosiness of the characters, you can't help but think that if Mrs. Bennet were alive today she'd simply talk about celebrities and TV all the time. Instead the only "shows" they have to watch are the people in the neighborhood.

Yes, I think this is quite true and goes a long way to explaining the curiously earnest and frank way the characters dissect one another's personalities, actions and comments. I think they really had to be careful about what they said and did, as it is all under such careful scrutiny!

When Mrs. Bennet embarrasses herself in Chapter 9, I thought that I might not have realized how untoward her comments were if the author had not described the reactions of the others. The things she said didn't seem so terribly outlandish, more just somewhat clumsy and revealing of her self-absorption and lack of social grace. And yet within the context of these rigorous standards and keen scrutiny, such missteps become glaringly obvious and consequential.

I was fascinated by Elizabeth's observation on 'the efficacy of poetry in driving away love'. I wonder if anyone else could elaborate on that a bit? Does it mean that the lofty sentiments expressed in poetry can expose the trivialness of a trivial attraction?

When describing Lydia's boldness in demanding a ball, there was a phrase I didn't quite grasp, and I wonder if it is just an obsolete usage:

She had high animal spirits, and a sort of natural self-consequence ...

the author goes on to explain that that had 'increased into assurance', so I could get a sense of what she meant, but was that expression 'self-consequence' familiar to anyone else?

I have to confess to enjoying disliking Miss Bingley more and more. She is so pathetic in her attentions to Darcy, and couldn't take a worse approach if she tried. It's interesting that Elizabeth is doing all the right things, but not out of adeptness or contrivance, but just as a result of her personality and genuine lack of concern for Darcy. It's delicious!

I really enjoyed the intricate conversations between Darcy and Elizabeth in Chapters 10 and 11 (which I had to read quite carefully to follow the points that were being made). There were two aspects of the conversation in Chapter 10 that reminded me so much of messageboard interactions! How often did I say this on TORC! (Though of course, not so elegantly):

You expect me to account for opinions which you choose to call mine, but which I have never acknowledged.

And Bingley's attitude towards Darcy's and Elizabeth's conversation struck me as exactly the kind of thing that was often said by one group to another on b77 (as what is compelling conversation to some people is nothing more than annoying argument to others).

I absolutely loved the incident on the path, which again demonstrated that wonderful aspect of Elizabeth's character which I had identified as confidence earlier, but which I see is more than that. Elizabeth is so sure of and true to her own principles that the genuine rudeness of Mrs. Hurst is not able to elevate to a level of importance to her. I just love her for this:

But Elizabeth, who had not the least inclination to remain with them, laughingly answered, --
'No, no; stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoilt by admitting a fourth. Good-bye.'
She then rain gaily off, rejoicing ...

And for delighting in Bingley's attentions to Jane.

And the description of Miss Bingley's contrived attempts to appear interested in reading for Darcy's sake was marvelous!

I didn't quite understand this reference, by Bingley in response to his sister's comments regarding the upcoming ball:

'but as for the ball, it is quite a settled thing, and as soon as Nicholls has made white soup enough I shall send round my cards.'

Any insights on what the 'white soup' refers to?

Also I wondered if there was a misprint in my copy, right at the end of Chapter 12, when describing Mary's occupations while the sisters were away:

'They found Mary, as usual, deep in the study of thorough bass and human nature;'

And isn't this wonderful:

'and some new observations of threadbare morality to listen to.

Oh, and I learned two new words -- 'panegyric' and 'celerity'!

[truehobbit]

Also I wondered if there was a misprint in my copy, right at the end of Chapter 12, when describing Mary's occupations while the sisters were away:

'They found Mary, as usual, deep in the study of thorough bass and human nature;'

No misprint, Cerin, but a very fine example of humourous juxtaposition of very different things.

"Thorough bass" is a term from musical polyphony. In Bach's era (well, generally from the 17th century until way into the classical age, but I'd have to look that up more exactly - also for a better explanation, I only have the vaguest understanding of this), there was a system of rules by which you could play the chords for the bass instruments without having to write them out - the composer would only give the basic notes and some numbers, and everybody knew what chords were meant.

So she was studying (at that time obsolete) rules for music at the same time as something as vital as human nature!

(Edited, because I wasn't sure if the things I'd said before were correct. )

[Cerin]

Oh, thanks for that explanation, hobby! I couldn't figure out how the words 'thorough' and 'bass' could go together. I wondered if it might be referring to fish.

[vison]

"White Soup" was one of those "done" things in that era. You gave a party so you did certain fashionable things, and one of the fashionable things was to serve White Soup for "supper", which was not dinner, but eaten late in the evening. It meant, among other things, that you could afford a good cook.

According to The Friendly Jane Austen, by Natalie Tyler,
"White soup is similar to syllabub in its marriage of cream and
sweetened-liquor, but it is more fortifying in that it also
includes meat stock, egg yolks, and ground up almonds.
Served hot, this cholesterol-laden treat must have added
to the general euphoria of a ball....."

[Cerin]

Ah, thank you for the info, vison!

It sounded from Bingley's comment that it would take some time to make up enough of this soup, which led me to think about the problem of keeping it fresh until the ball, which then led me to wonder if they were talking about a real soup at all.