Fan-fiction

[MithLuin]

So, fan-fiction would be that blurred line, where you are creating an original story or idea, but borrowing heavily from someone else's characters or world.

If you write it, post links to your work.

If you read it, post links to stories you'd like to recommend.

If stories need warnings, warn people. (Ie, slash, character death, graphic sex scenes, gore, the like).

It doesn't have to be just Tolkien fanfiction - any fandom welcome

This is why I don't start threads. I don't know how to initiate conversations, just how to respond to people who initiate them!

[Jnyusa]

Mith, would you mind very much if I moved the discussion of fanfic to the Library instead of The Red Book?

When we were discussing the creation of this forum, we talked about the status of fanfic and felt that because it's not original work it wouldn't need the protection of a closed forum. It couldn't be published, you know, so we don't have to offer protection for potentially copyrighted material as we would for an original work.

This is a genre that blurs the boundary, as you said, but as long as web publication rights will never be up for sale, the fanfic that appears on the web is already in 'final form' as it were, so I think that the library would be a better place for those links. You also might get more viewings and discussion, I think, if the thread is in a forum that can be seen by the public. (And we might get some new members.)

Thanks!

Jn

[elfshadow]

I only occasionally read fan-fiction, mostly Harry Potter fanfic. Some of it is very entertaining! I don't usually read LotR fanfic, except for the amazing and hilarious Very Secret Diaries by Cassandra Claire, of course. She was a brilliant writer and I was really disappointed when she stopped doing the VSDs. I'm sure most people here have read them, but I'll link to them anyway. The Very Secret Diaries.

[truehobbit]

I think the question of how far fan-fic is original literature is a good topic in itself.
How far does fanfic need to get away from the original to be publishable?
Or what can people do to get permission for something to be published that is fan-fic in nature?

(For example, just earlier today, before seeing this thread, I noticed the first book of the "Fionavar Tapestry" on my bookshelf and thought how it's basically fanfic, and bad fanfic at that, too.)

I don't read much fan-fic, but if it's well-done and original, I enjoy it. (I've even written it myself.)

I could try to find links to the handful of stories I've enjoyed so far.

(And, Mith, I've read yours, sorry I never got back to you about it - I have been meaning to... )

[Alys]

(For example, just earlier today, before seeing this thread, I noticed the first book of the "Fionavar Tapestry" on my bookshelf and thought how it's basically fanfic, and bad fanfic at that, too.)

Oooh that's fighting talk Hobby! You can't talk about Guy Kay like that! Actually, although he's one of my favourite authors (somedays my absolute favourite), I read and loved 'Fionavar' when I was younger but so far it has defeated any of my subsequent attempts to read it, I still think that calling it 'bad fanfic' is a wee bit harsh. It may be derivative, but it does have its own characters and plot. Have you tried any of his later stuff btw? Some of that is excellent, my own favourite is probably Lions of Al Rassan.

I love Cassie Clare too Elsha - have you read her Draco Dormiens stuff? It's pretty entertaining too

[Erunáme]

For example, just earlier today, before seeing this thread, I noticed the first book of the "Fionavar Tapestry" on my bookshelf and thought how it's basically fanfic, and bad fanfic at that, too.

Are you kidding me? The Fionavar Tapestry is great and it's certainly not fanfic at all. It may utilize wizards and a dwarf but Tolkien hardly has the rights to that sort of thing. Fanfic uses the characters of another story. Kay did not do that. The Fionavar Tapestry is his homage to Tolkien...he's said as much. But it's certainly not fanfiction, nor bad at that.

Kay is a brilliant fantasy author.

*waits for Estel to show up*

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About fanfic, I can't say I like to read it so much. I have no problem with it though. It's fun to muse about what the characters could continue to do after the original story is over. The only fanfic I have a problem with is the slash stuff. I think it's quite disrespectful to the original author.

[truehobbit]

Oooh that's fighting talk Hobby!

Hehe, yes, I realise that!
I only read it in the first place because it was so warmly recommended by the bookworms in the lounge way back when.
But I only read the first volume because I didn't like it at all. Just my personal opinion, of course, but I thought the characters of what you could call the original plot (the 20th century characters) were boring, predictable and following the standards of modern adventure fiction, while the fantasy part, the Elves etc, was a Tolkien rip-off that mainly distinguished itself from the original by being so dull and unimaginative.

And that's where you get to something that is really a question with fan-fic for me.

What Kay did was to use all new names and a non-Tolkien background - but he ripped all the fantasy world from him.
What fan-fic does is to use the characters Tolkien invented and write new stories for them, often putting them in quite un-Tolkienesque situations.

I think the definition of fanfic is that fanfic enlarges on themes and ideas developed by an author.

So, I think that there's a narrow line that separates free use of mythology from copyright violation - personally, I think what Kay did is fanfic of sorts, too, because the borrowing is so obvious.
On the one hand, of course mythology isn't copyright - just having Elves and wizards in your story doesn't mean you're enlarging on Tolkien - but on the other hand, I think that using recognisably similar names and creatures is as much as enlarging on an author, i.e. fanfic.

Above, I spoke of the topic of whether fanfic is original literature - so, that's what I meant by that. Generally speaking, is it only the use of names and characters invented by another author that makes a story fanfic? If I wrote a story in which some Elves with names developed (by me) from Quenya roots had adventures in a world with places invented by me, but whose physical characteristics are also found in Middle-earth - would that be fanfic or not?
Conversely, some stories involving Frodo and Sam are highly original and good quality writing - even though I'd probably agree that there's a copyright problem with publishing such a story, I'd call some of it "original literature", in spite of the use of given characters. Besides, original literature can use characters that are no longer copyright - so the only difference here is that the characters are copyright, not that the story makes use of pre-invented characters.


ETA:

The Fionavar Tapestry is his homage to Tolkien...he's said as much.

So, when I use Tolkien's world for my own story and call it a homage that makes it 'not fanfiction'? I think much of fanfiction sees itself as a homage to the author.
(Also, not all fanfic is about what happened after the events of the original story.)
I'd agree, though, that slash doesn't qualify for homage.

[vison]

Having written a really quite amazingly enormous amount of fanfic, I have a sort of vested interest in this discussion.

When I wrote "Elanor's Diary", for instance, a very long and involved version of just that, the diary of Elanor (Gamgee) Gardener when she lived at the court of King Elessar, I invented a whole raft of characters. King Elessar was there, as was Queen Arwen, but they were just "there" and did very little, my invented characters carried on splendidly without them. This turned into a novel of incredible length and was well-received by a small legion of fans on another website, where it still resides in the archives and is still read and enjoyed.

I wrote another novel about the adventures of Legolas, sending him first to Far Harad, and then on to kingdoms wholly created by me. My Legolas wasn't much like Tolkien's, I suppose, but I was very careful not to have him do anything Tolkien would have disapproved of. That was important to me, since I felt the character had a kind of dignity and integrity that would keep him from naughty amorous adventures with any gender. If fanfic writers would just stick to that attitude and make up their own characters for the naughty bits, I could bear it better! I was absolutely horrified when I read the one "slash" story I ever read featuring -- who else? -- Sam and Frodo. Jeez.

But in all honesty, the fun of writing this stuff was in learning that "my" characters jumped out of where they'd been living all my life. There were hordes of them!

It was great. I learned that I could write (how well I leave to that small legion of fans) and not only that, that I could write a long and sustained narrative. For me, it was an education, a training session.

What with one thing and another I haven't done much writing lately, except for the bits of Passion's Purple Promise that I have posted on B77 and here. Another bit of sheer fun, yet it still amazes me that these people are there in my mind, fully formed and longing to tell their stories.

A dear friend of mine on the "old board" still writes fanfic. She is a very, very talented writer. But in my view it's time she moved on to creating her own world in entirety and left Boromir and the others behind: she is such a very good writer that it is a crying shame that nothing she writes can really be "published" since Tolkien's characters appear in them now and again. Yet her wonderful work is original and beautiful and deserving of better.

The other thing I learned from all that fanfic writing was that I can't write Tolkien-style fantasy. I can put people in Middle Earth, but they refuse to act like Tolkien's characters and start acting like themselves.

[MithLuin]

Jny, I'm sure the thread will do just fine here, thanks. I just put it in the other forum because I thought it complemented the HP screenplay attempts. But being non-member-only is probably better.


I would define fan-fiction as anything that borrows the characters, story, or "world" of the original story. So, if you have all original characters, but put them in Middle Earth, or make them Jedi, or send them to Hogwarts....it's still fan-fiction. If you write a completely original story, but your characters are Harry Potter grown up with grandkids, or Faramir and Éowyn living in Ithilien, or an elf who explains that he is a Sinda...that's fan-fiction.

"Derivative" works aren't really fan-fiction...just tributes. If you write an original story, with original characters, in an original world...that's your own story. If it happens to sound suspiciously like the author you are emulating...well, that's okay . The only work by Guy Kay that I've read is Last Light of the Sun...I liked it . I once considered writing an original fantasy story...in which all the names in Faerie would be Quenya . I was going to explain it all away as 'translation', but still....

And to further blur the line , you can publish Star Wars fan-fiction. Well, if you get permission from Lucasfilm. But the plethora of "Young Jedi" novels, the X-wing series, the New Jedi Order, the Dark Horse comic series....what are these if not fan-fiction? Professional fan-fiction, but still.

HERE is a link to Cassandra Claire's Draco stories that Alys mentioned. The Very Secret Diaries are technically slash, I guess, but really humor. Source of: "Still the Prettiest," "Killed by Orcs. Stupid Orcs," "Pervy Hobbit Fancier," and "Sam will kill him if he tries anything."

I read Tolkien and Harry Potter fan-fiction, and have attempted writing both. I wouldn't say my attempts were anything impressive, though . So, Hobby, no worries about the delay in feedback .

I don't usually visit fanfiction.net. Too much dross to shift through to find stuff worth reading. Here are some archives I've found:

West of the Moon
Hobbit fics. The site does have slash, but it is kept completely seperate from the General fics. Ratings and warnings clearly marked, easy to search by author. Approved authors only, so generally good quality work.

Stories of Arda
General Tolkien fics. Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. No slash. Maximum rating R. Best Review system I've seen - very easy to get and give feedback!

Occlumency @ Sycophant Hex
Snape fanfics . If I ever finish mine, I will post it here. Have to login to access high ratings on this site...which is just as well, because there are no restrictions on what can be posted. Heed the warnings! Seriously twisted erotica is mixed in with everything else. Other archives at this site are for Snape/Hermione, the Weasleys, the Malfoys, Lupin, etc.

Fiction Alley
More Harry Potter fanfic. I've read some stories on Schnoogle, but I don't visit here often, so I can't really review it.


My introduction to fanfic is definately Pippinsqueak's hobbit stories. That was the first time I realized fanfiction could be well-written, canon, and add something to my appreciation of the original story by exploring unanswered questions or undeveloped backstory.

I didn't discover Harry Potter fanfiction until about a year ago. I had always considered Snape to be my favorite character, but after reading HBP, I became somewhat obsessed with him . One of the first AU stories I found (well, it tries to be canon, but really isn't) is fun:
The Smallest Slytherin
An Obedient House
and Salazar's Orphans
Basically, the idea is to put a good spin on Slytherins - they are ambitious, yes, but not exactly evil (and fiercely loyal to one another, it turns out). I consider this to be the extreme of "Snape's really on the good side," but it was all written prior to HBP. Also, I think JKR created the need for the houses to unite and for people to overcome their rivalries...so this is like the happy-universe version where they all become friends.


I don't have many particular favorites, but I might post more links to fics I like, eventually

[Jnyusa]

... you can publish Star Wars fan-fiction. Well, if you get permission from Lucasfilm ...

Yes, and I believe Star Trek has franchise options too. Thanks for reminding me about that, Mith.

If anyone here is working on something like that, please let us know so that we can put it in the protected forum.

For our purposes here, the distinction between fanfic and other kinds of writing (including franchises) is not artistic but functional. If having your work picked up by the bots and splattered around the web (not to mention copied by others) would adversely affect your publishing opportunities, we will definitely put it in The Red Book.

Jn

[Erunáme]

I don't have a lot of time but I did want to make one quick remark:

So, when I use Tolkien's world for my own story and call it a homage that makes it 'not fanfiction'?

Kay did not use Tolkien's world. Period.

[truehobbit]

Wow, vison, great post! Why don't you post a link to that board that hosts your novel?

My introduction to fanfic is definately Pippinsqueak's hobbit stories. That was the first time I realized fanfiction could be well-written, canon, and add something to my appreciation of the original story by exploring unanswered questions or undeveloped backstory.

Same here.
And they would have been what I'd have linked to, so that trouble is saved.

West of the Moon belongs to Shadowfax8, who was my first close TORC-friend, and introduced me to just about everything on the Internet and Tolkien-fandom I hadn't known before.
Including the Secret Diaries. No Tolkien fan is complete without them.
(You could say, though, that we started going different ways the more Shadow went into fanfic and I didn't, so I've never taken part in West of the Moon. It's awesome that her site made such a success!)

Hmmh, I think I could imagine taking some interest in HP fanfic, too, but not before the story is ended.

[truehobbit]

Kay did not use Tolkien's world. Period.

Eru, there's no need to get all huffed up about the fact that I happen to dislike an author you love.
Expressing yourself in such a way as though your view of him was the only truth is not helpful.

[elfshadow]

Alys, I've only briefly read the Draco series by Cassie Claire, but it was nearly as good as the VSDs.

And as Mith (I believe) mentioned, the VSDs probably are technically slash, although I don't think that's their purpose. They seem to me to be more of a parody of what you could call "Mary Sue" fan-fiction, as well as just about all Lord of the Rings slash that was written for the sole purpose of being slash.

The question of what makes fan-fiction fan-fiction is an interesting one. Think of something like Wicked, for example, by Gregory Maguire. I've never read the book, but I know the basic premise of it, and I've also listened to the soundtrack of the musical that was based off of it, thanks to Mossy. Wicked is the story of of Glinda the Good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West (christened Elphaba) before and how they became known as such in L. Frank Baum's original, The Wizard Of Oz. Wicked uses many of Baum's characters, as well as Baum's world, loosely, but the story is completely different from the original Wizard of Oz both in plot and in style. By traditional definition, I suppose Wicked would be considered fan-fiction. But it just doesn't seem to be an appropriate label considering the differences between the two works. Does anyone else who knows of both have an opinion on this? I'd be very curious to hear what others think.

[Erunáme]

Kay did not use Tolkien's world. Period.

Eru, there's no need to get all huffed up about the fact that I happen to dislike an author you love.
Expressing yourself in such a way as though your view of him was the only truth is not helpful.

It would be helpful if you wouldn't read things into people's post. I'm talking about facts. That's it. I'm an not getting all huffed up. I am posting in a matter-of-fact manner.

If you want to get into Kay ripping off anything, it would be the Arthur legends or Norse mythology, not Tolkien.

[Estel]

This post includes spoilers about The Fionavar Tapestry.


Guy Gavriel Kay wrote FT as the original world from which all myths come from. If you read through it carefully, you can see that it is a tribute to all great myths in the world. Some directly, as seen with his reference to Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur, and some more subtly.

For instance, he uses references to Norse mythology constantly through the book. He talk about the World Tree (Yggdrasil) and Pauls trials on it - a direct parallel to Odins own trials on the tree. Mornir, one of the gods of the book, has ravens, though and memory, just as Odin has Hugin and Munin. Mornir also resembles the Norse god Thor in some aspects.

To say that Rakoth is based off of Sauron is not bothering to even look at the name. Rakoth is Ragnarok and is directly referencing to Norse mythology, and has no reference to Tolkien except in that Tolkien also referenced to Norse mythology. The long winter spoken of in FT comes from the Norse myth of Ragnarok. When it comes to the lios alfar and the svart alfar are actually names in Old Norse meaning light and dark elves. No reference to Tolkien again.


Depsite all of this emphasis on Norse mythology, the majority of the Gods in FT come from Celtic mythology, as well as some of the main characters. The Morrigan is present with Kim. Paul comes across Dana / Rhiannon. As for character being based on Celtic mythology - Paul, for instance, is Pwyll, Prince of Dyfed in the Celtic World. Finn mac Coul can also be found in FT, with the name Finn. Kay did change the story a bit of Finn, but the reference is still there. The Wild Hunt spoken of with this story is one found in many mythologies in the world.

You can even find Native American aspects, like The Trickster, showing their colours in characters in this book. Diarmuid and Rakoth both.

Though Kay wrote FT as a tribute to Tolkien, saying that FT is a fanfic based on TLotR, is like saying that Tolkien only wrote fanfic based on myth as well. There are so many deeper levels to the books that took an immense amount of research into myths and legends from many parts of the world.

Saying that it is a bad fanfic - implying the writing is bad - is misleading as well. If this book were badly written, it would not be used by professors in many universities as an example of brilliant fantasy writing. Before I'm asked how I know this, I'll simply say that I'll have a list of places that include this book in their syllabii later on this weekend




I referenced to articles by Adrienne Johannson and Amy Yeong Xiao Hui when writing this post.

[Alys]

I don't think that Eru was being huffy, Hobby but I could understand why if she was. I don't think that anyone minds that our favourite authors aren't liked by everyone, but it's easy to be miffed when we think that they're mischaracterised, or worse, dismissed. You described a book by an author that you know several of us admire as being, "basically fanfic, and bad fanfic at that, too" and I did rather feel that you were dismissing him rather that critiquing him.

You did acknowledge that you knew it was fighting talk afterall!

Oh and although it's probably my least favourite of all his books, and IMO the weakest in terms of writing, you must have been very lucky with your fanfic if you thought it was a bad example of that!

Edit: Estel I love your sig. Mostly because it, and particularly the one you had just before it, are very similar to mine on TOB - what excellent taste you must have!

[The Angel]

Oh and although it's probably my least favourite of all his books, and IMO the weakest in terms of writing, you must have been very lucky with your fanfic if you thought it was a bad example of that!

Heavens above!

Haven't you read Tigana?

[Estel]

Alys - avatar or sig pic? Either way, thanks I'll have to go look at ToB to see yours



Song for Arbonne is the weakest one for me. Tigana is my favorite, but that's because it was the first book I ever read by Kay. First love and all that. My ultimate favorite Kay book is the StS duology. Utterly brilliant.

[Alys]

Angel I know how you feel about Tigana And it's my second least favourite, but it's not as bad as all that!

Anyway - this is about Fan-fiction, not Guy Kay!

Estel - Avatar, and you're welcome