Fan-fiction

[truehobbit]

I don't think that Eru was being huffy, Hobby but I could understand why if she was. I don't think that anyone minds that our favourite authors aren't liked by everyone, but it's easy to be miffed when we think that they're mischaracterised, or worse, dismissed. You described a book by an author that you know several of us admire as being, "basically fanfic, and bad fanfic at that, too" and I did rather feel that you were dismissing him rather that critiquing him.

Alys, I was making it very clear that I was speaking of my own opinion of him. Telling me that something is this or that way. "Period." is not something that comes across as calm posting. It was snappy, and the only reason I could imagine for the snappiness was anger.

Oh and although it's probably my least favourite of all his books, and IMO the weakest in terms of writing, you must have been very lucky with your fanfic if you thought it was a bad example of that!

Yes, I have.
Read pip's stories Mith linked to above.

ETA: Estel, that was a good post on Kay's work - thanks for giving some background. I've just read this one book and disliked it on many grounds, so I wouldn't have noticed such detail on the sources he draws from.
(Although I wouldn't base my judgement on the quality of a book on how much it is liked by professors. )

[Estel]

I don't base my own opinion on professors opinions. Just thought it might add some weight to the argument

I'll admit, I prefer his historical fantasy to his high fantasy, but there are parts to FT.... Lets just say that any author who can wrap enough emotion in to make the reader laugh or cry in one well written sentence, isn't someone who I think should be dismissed so lightly. Kay is a master of the English language. It does show more in his later books, but FT has that brilliance in parts of it as well.

Check out this thread about Kay. Reactions like those in that thread do not come from people as intelligent as Enchie, Amarië, rwhen or Aggie if the author is simply a writer of bad fanfic. Perhaps if the opinions of professors hold no weight with you, the opinions of friends and fellow posters might

I'll stop hijacking this thread about Kay though. Like others here, I felt the need to defend against them fightin words

[MithLuin]

Hobby, Eru, please and make up. There's no need to get angry, but if you are, it's my fault....

...for not stepping in sooner to mention that Guy Kay didn't write fan-fiction (so needn't be discussed on this thread). Legally, fan-fiction is what you get sued for publishing, because that's plagarism, to take someone else's copyrighted characters and world. Obviously, he didn't do that (the Tolkien Estate is not as...forgiving...as I am).

There, is that fan-fiction? I've taken two quotes from movies, and manipulated them to fit my purposes. I mean, not only is there a line between fan-fiction and original work, but there is a line between full-blown fanfiction and merely alluding to or referencing someone else's work.

Now, HERE is an example of bad fanfiction. It's "Lucius' Shadow" by Odyssia.

Okay, I am not being kind - it does have redeeming qualities. But it has serious flaws. Her OFC is rather Mary Sue-ish. She has superpowers, even for a witch. But, she has personal hang-ups that mean she really isn't as all powerful as she's made out to be (she is very vulnerable, in fact), so that adds a point to the story (and balances out the silliness). Oh...and whenever the author didn't know what else to do with her characters, she wrote sex scenes. At some point, she had trouble topping herself, so it gets a little....well...yeah. But it is coherent, and details that are introduced early on reappear later (with significance). Her characterizations are decently done, whether canon (Voldemort, Lucius, Snape) or original (Lauren, Carmichael, Marc). The ending is very abrupt. And it's long...it takes her 63 chapters to get through this story (which is mostly about a stranger to the Wizarding world falling in with Death Eaters and being seduced by Lucius Malfoy). Some editing wouldn't have been remiss...

I did not pick the worst story I could find, merely a story that, while it has (some) merit, demonstrates that the author is a novice. Being a novice author myself, I can sympathise . But anyway, while there may be some potential in this story, it is not publishable, even if it weren't fan-fiction. It's just...not good enough writing.

to Hobby and Eru.

[Erunáme]

It was snappy, and the only reason I could imagine for the snappiness was anger.

Please stop mischaracterizing my post. I said it wasn't in anger and I meant what I said. Nor was it snappy. As I said before I was posting in a matter-of-fact manner which means I got straight to the point.

There really isn't much to argue about. Sometimes opinions can be wrong and this just might be one of those instances. Estel outlined the reasons quite well. I have to wonder if you even read all three books and how much attention you paid them whilst reading them if you think they are based on Tolkien's world...it's just so off base. I mean, a mage takes some modern day Canadians back to the First World and there they have encounters with Aurthur Pendragon and Lancelot (and one of the Canadians turns out to be Guinevere and also happened to be raped by the bad guy and bears his child), Norse Gods, and Celtic Gods...oh and they also meet a tribe of what resembles Native Americans which has a boy who rides a flying red unicorn. Yeah, that sounds so much like Tolkien.

You can call it bad writing. But to call it fanfic...that's just plain wrong and that's my opinion that I am allowed to express, though it just so happens I have quite a lot of fact backing up my opinion.

I'm out. I apologize for hijacking your thread MithLuin. (and btw, I don't think truehobbit and I have ever been on good terms so nothing to make up, really.)

[MithLuin]

Yes, eveyone's allowed to express their opinions here. I'm sorry there was a spat. I'm generally clueless about who gets along with whom, so I do apologize for not knowing that this wasn't...isolated. <shrugs> You both seem like wonderful ladies to me....

I don't consider the thread hijacked, so no hard feelings.

Anyway, I just remembered what the first fic I read on Occlumency (Snape site) was:

Yes, but...

It's a parody of the Marriage Law stories (generally, Hermione has to marry Snape because the Ministry passes a new pointless law stating that all muggleborn witches have to marry pureblooded wizards by their x birthday, or something.) In this story, the unlucky couple is... Tonks and Snape. It really is hilarious (the Weasley twins promise to make an appearance - they have something to do with the plans for the wedding reception), though currently unfinished and updated only very slowly.

Depending on my mood, I like slapstick. I think my real preference is for angst, but after a little too much of that, I need a break . I am too serious to write anything (intentionally) funny myself, so I could never do a story like this.

[Pearly Di]

I once participated on another fanfic thread on another forum and people's feelings about this run VERY high.

Fantasy
I have read very little fantasy besides Tolkien, for the very good reason that LOTR simply doesn't FEEL like fantasy to me. It feels much more like a genuine history, albeit an imaginary one.

Having said that, I enjoyed The Fionavar Trilogy tremendously. I couldn't put it down, in fact. And some parts of it are very moving. And very much over-the-top in places as well, to be honest but yes ... very enjoyable.

Kay certainly nods in Tolkien's direction in Fionavar, but as Estel points out, most of the material and inspiration for Fionavar is more directly Norse and Celtic. Kay's trilogy has a far more obviously pagan feel than LOTR does.

Anyway ... onto the topic of the thread.

Fanfic
Mithluin, I think you know that I have several fics archived in the Gen Section of West of the Moon, under my Diamond of Long Cleeve handle.

I still have plot bunnies gambolling around in my head but as Vison so wisely says, sometimes a fanfic writer needs to start producing her own stuff instead of borrowing other people's characters ...

That's not a dig at fanfic, by the way. Like Vison, I really enjoy fanfic (and writing it, when in the mood) and have read some really great fics over the years.

One of my favourite fanfic writers is Oselle (one of my LJ friends). Check out her lovely Frodo-centric gen stories at West of the Moon. The one that made me cry is her truly beautiful Across the Waters.

Illyria Novia is also very much worth checking out (also West of the Moon, gen section ... my favourite LOTR fanfic archive, it's so nicely laid out and has a sensible policy.)

-edit-

edited to say that I have only read LOTR fanfic (and I don't read much of that, these days).

Oh, and I absolutely adore LOTR parody. Any parody! Cassie Claire's Very Secret Diaries ARE very funny, and their fame reached beyond the fandom. One day in Feb 2002, a work colleague emailed them to me.

[MithLuin]

I agree; real writers should, you know - write. No reason to limit your work to fanfic.

Us miserably inept writers can start with fanfic to learn the ropes. Trust me when I say that I am not (at the moment) capable of writing an original story....well, not a good one, at any rate. Most of the stories I tell are pointless...they just kinda ramble, and nothing happens. Fanfiction gives me a leg up by creating the questions to answer, the characters to play with, and the rules of the world to work within. By having so many parameters fixed, I can focus on the mechanics of writing and storytelling. But even within fan-fiction, you can move (gradually) into more and more original work. It's kinda like a crutch to get started . It's still enjoyable in its own right, though!

Fan-fiction is also a good way of sharing your work with a ready-made audience. If I wrote an original story about 5 teenagers (named Patrick, Andrea, Justin, David and Julie - orphaned brothers and sisters) who had to fight a bad guy with supernatural powers and a fortified compound(named Murasaki) and had a pet fox (okay, I don't recall the fox's name ), chances are no one would want to read it . [My sister and I made up this story in high school ] But as soon as I make the story about Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin...now I have people who will read and review and tell me how much they love hobbits .

And yes, I am familiar with your stories - which are far superior to mine! I am glad you have expanded your horizons to include something else. I will have to check out those authors you mentioned - I don't think I've read any of their work yet.

[Impenitent]

Here's a thought out of left field: Collaborative roleplay stories as fan-fic.

No, I don't mean those RPGs where you type in: "go left, pick up keys", I mean the elaborate collaboration, with plot and realistic characters that interact in the given world.

Like in the Prancing Pony on TORC.

Granted, most are silly, playful, a bit of fluff, rife with bad grammar and misspelling, mary sues etc....but some, a handful, are crafted carefully by mature writers who actually want to explore the world; whose characters are complex and very real and plots which push the edges of Tolkien's world.

I guess these kinds of roleplay/collaborative stories could use any created world, but I've only ever seen them done properly with a ME theme - probably has to do with where I hang out. I don't exactly explore the avenues.

But really - some of the best of those RPs on TORC (and now on another small MB I frequent) have been the most thought-provoking, illuminating, moving writing I've read in the fanfic genre.

[Pearly Di]

But really - some of the best of those RPs on TORC (and now on another small MB I frequent) have been the most thought-provoking, illuminating, moving writing I've read in the fanfic genre.

I've never been into RPG, but I believe you.

I feel the same way about some of the literary discussions I used to take part in at Imladris and TORC. They were better than some of the essays I've read from the Tolkien Society.

Mith, I've read a lot of excellent fanfic and I wouldn't say writers were inept just because they were relatively new at it. Fanfic is a fun way of improving one's writing skills, and as you say, you have a very accessible audience.

I write a bit and have had the odd thing published -nothing major, I hasten to add, just a few poems and articles here and there. The thing is, when it comes to fiction, I have characters in my head but NO PLOTS. I just can't think of good plots ...

Which is why I enjoyed writing LOTR fanfic, as I could play with an existing world - a world I loved.

[MithLuin]

Ah, of course, I worded that awkwardly. Some people are brilliant writers, and their first fanfics are just great. I meant that for people who aren't all that skilled at writing, fan-fiction has some built in crutches to help them along the way. Not everyone needs (or uses) those crutches, no matter how much of a novice they are .

And yes, Role-Play would be a form of fan-fiction. It's unique in that there are multiple authors, so it's a collaboration. Feel free to link any you like on this thread, Imp!

[JewelSong]

I have read some fantastic FanFic ... and some abyssmally bad!

And I like anything that is well-written. Including "slash" (although I know it is not to everyone's taste!)

One on-going fic that I would recommend is "Rites of Passage" by WillowWode. Sort of a "forging of the Ringbearer" with many minor characters fleshed out and a darker side to the Shire. But, damn - it is SO well-written. You can find it HERE

Willow has also written other LOTR stories AND she does artwork, too. All stories and art are marked with ratings and genre.

[MithLuin]

Somewhere earlier on this thread, I promised to link to my fan-fiction (that's up). I don't think I ever did, oops

So, here they are:

Deeper than the Darkness

After It All

Both are hobbity; the first focuses on Merry and Pippin during the first spring back in the Shire (~20,000 words). The second is a short one-shot of Frodo in Tol Eressëa (and is, I will admit, rather Mary Sue-ish ).

My current project is a bit darker - it's a Harry Potter fanfic focusing on Snape from his graduation from Hogwarts to the death of the Potters. So, yeah, 3 years of Death Eater insanity . I've been working on it for almost a year. I currently have 45,000 words and most of 9 chapters done. I have half of chapter 4 and all of chapter 6 left to write, so I'm hoping to finish it before Christmas . In this case, it's my response to book 6, trying to figure out who Snape is and what he's about.

At this point, I just want to get it finished, so I can get to work on my Silmarillion fanfic featuring teenage Elrond and Elros during the War of Wrath. I'm excited about that project, but I don't know when I'll have time for it .

[vison]

May one, if one wishes, post any fanfic here?

[Primula Baggins]

One is welcome to post links to any fanfic, but we sort of prefer links to just dropping it into a post, if it's longer than, say, the latest installment of your masterwork (which must surely be on the way! Right?).

If what's beyond the link has what some people like to call "mature content," we also appreciate it if you warn people about that.

[vison]

Okey dokey.

Oh, no "mature content"!!! Holy cats, no. Pure enough even for baby tuckoo. And other innocents. ( I will do some sort of linky thingy later, I guess.)

Nothing like, for instance, the "mature" tone of "Passion's Purple Promise". That is so "mature", isn't it? I mean, it just reeks of maturity. Well, it reeks, anyway!

Yes, indeedy, I burn the midnight oil, toiling away over that deathless prose. At any moment, when you least suspect the horror to come, I shall spring it on you!!!!!

[MithLuin]

Looking forward to it, vison.

[Primula Baggins]

vison! Egads! I didn't say we don't allow links to "mature content"—I just said, okay, warn people so they can decide for themselves whether to follow the link. Lots of fanfic is very nice and anyone can enjoy it. Lots of it isn't "nice" in quite that sense. Just warn people who don't, say, want to stumble onto elf/dwarf slash or such.

As for "Passion's Purple Promise," I find my bosom heaving like the surging tide of a summer storm at the mere thought. Bring it on!

Edit: I just reread your post and now see that all you meant is that your fanfic has no "mature content" (silly term). I look forward to reading it. I'd look forward to it if it had "mature content" too.

[MithLuin]

Still waiting for vison's link...


While I'm here: my Snape story is finished and posted.

Metanoia - The Conversion of Severus Snape

Despite the loaded title, it has nothing to do with religion . I just wanted to explore what his deal is, and which side he's on, and I realized for him, all his decisions don't, precisely, add up - so he moves sometimes in one direction, and sometimes in another. Hence, a gradual change rather than a conversion experience.


My next story will be Maedhros in Mandos. I've hammered out 10 out of 13 chapters, but only in rough draft form. It'll take some editing. But once I'm finished that, I can get back to young Elrond and Elros this summer (I hope!).

[vison]

Gracious me. I forgot all about it. I will try to do something about it later.