The Battle hymn of the Tiger Mother

[Nin]

I hesitated to put this thread here or in another forum.

I am quite sure you have heard about this book by now in which Amy Chua, a law professor at Yale tells about the education of her two daughters in strict way, which she labels chinese.

If you have not heard about it, a link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/20/books/20book.html

And another:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/fashi ... &ref=books

At first, I did not want to buy that book, being revolted from what I had read beforehand. But I don't like to judge a book by its cover and thus decided to read it in full elngth - it's an easy read in English, furthermore.

At some points, I was shocked and pitied the girls. But also fascinated: how can someone be so sure of himself? And how must it feel if your child becomes prodigious?

But there are also a lot of highly arguable positions in the book about so called chinese and western parenting, generalisations and prejudice. Finally, I am also very surprised at the fact that someone is willing to pull out his personal life and the lives of her children to the public in such a detailed manner.

Has any of you read it and what do you think about it?

[vison]

I haven't read it, but it piques my curiosity. Maybe I'll get to it next winter.

[yovargas]

I haven't read the book and doubt I will but I was fascinated by what I've seen/heard about the whole thing. My general feeling is that while she's probably wrong about a lot of things and perhaps somewhat narrow-minded in her definitions of things like "success" or "happiness", I also suspect that she is probably very right about a lot things and probably has a lot to teach "Western" culture. The (para)phrase "Westerners assume fragility, the Chinese assume strength" has stuck with me as it strikes me as a potentially powerful insight.

[vison]

Having now checked out the links, nope. Not going to bother.

[Lurker]

I have to say Princess has a copy so I read it.

I like 80% of what she is suggesting in the book and I have to agree if my Dad didn't push me to do better I wouldn't be where I am today. In fact, when I saw the Tim Horton's ad where the dad told his son, "Study, no Hockey" I was touched. http://youtu.be/uI33WlHqx-o I swear my Dad was like that. He always seats on the second floor of the rink where there is a glass panel and never on the bleachers when I play. I guess he doesn't want to make me nervous cause he is watching, maybe, I should ask him why.

I watched the World Men's Figure Skating wherein Patrick Chan broke the record and won the title this year and I saw his parents didn't even jump for joy when he won not even clapped their hands, no expression at all when they panned the camera. Hmmm...that is why Patrick Chan said in an interview "I can do better." Maybe they are not very expressive people like my dad.

All I can say, take some bits and pieces in the book that you think will help you make your kid succeed but not to the point of breaking him or her. My kids don't play with any of the electronic gadgets out in the market. I have no plans in buying them one. In fact, I am impressed that when they borrowed one from a friend, they didn't like it. I thought they will start asking me for one on the spot. I guess, they got frustrated that they can't win.

My kids love art though, they know who Pollock is, cause I always say your art work looks like something Pollock did. I want to introduce them to photography so I bought them a kid's camera from a lomography site. It's not digital, uses film though. They love it. Next time if their little hands can carry a videocam I'll buy them one, maybe they will like film making like I did when I was in grade school.

I'm really impressed with a friend of mine whose eight year old kid reads the newspaper! Oh my god, he likes the Metro ones, tabloid style paper. The teachers are impressed he can read at a twelve year old level. His dad said that when he was a baby, he would teach him the alphabets in French, the vowels first, not daddy or mommy. Wow!!! His first words, Ah, Eh, Bay, Cay in French. The fact is, his dad self taught himself how to speak French and I always thought he was a native speaker, so I guess he wants his kid to learn it, too.

My point is, you don't have to actually force your kid to do something but pushing him in the right direction is not bad either.

[Lalaith]

I don't know that I'll read the book.

I think there is something to the fact that we often do not expect enough of our children. There's a somewhat popular book going through Christian teen circles now called "Do Hard Things." Katie has read it, and I've read parts of it. I like its principles.

However, I'm not disciplined enough or driven enough to force my children to do the sorts of things Chua does. I think the quickest way to kill a love for something is to force it down your child's throat. (It is a challenge to balance that, though, with enough parental push to keep a child practicing and going through the difficult patches.)

Parenting is not easy. Ever. I am leery of people who claim to know all of the answers. One thing that makes parenting difficult is that it has to be adapted somewhat for each child even.

[Primula Baggins]

I did insist that my kids study piano long enough to learn to read music, but I let each of them quit after a few years because the love obviously wasn't there and (knowing my kids) I thought further pushing would be counterproductive.

Each of them found their own passion by high school, and each has worked at it tirelessly—because it was theirs, I suspect. I don't regret being "easy" on them.

Not every kid finds a path like that, but I'm not sure making one for them and forcing them down it is the answer, unless the worst thing you can imagine is a child without a goal. I've changed some of my own goals and also found new ones since becoming an independent adult, and I tend to believe that any person with a curious mind and the ability to work hard when inspired will end up fine.

[Lurker]

with both Lali and Prim.

In fact I have to face the fact my kids hate tennis. I will try again this year to encourage them to like it a wee bit so I enrolled them. The lessons are free so I took advantage, if they still don't like it, well, I have to throw the towel and call it quits. Well, they didn't say outright they don't like it, they both said "Daddy, it is so hard!" I just tell them try your best. I want to tell them hockey is more difficult and this one is easier but I bit my tongue, I don't want to discourage them. I guess they want to hit the ball all the time but can't, unlike in hockey they just run after the puck. I guess, little league baseball is not in the cards then but I will still try and see if they like it.

I try to get my kids to try different stuff, maybe one or two or more will stick. Art is where I push them, I had them holding crayons and hand paint since they were six months. They have joined a few art contests at the library and the museums, had their works displayed, but haven't won yet. Maybe someday.

[Lalaith]

Lurker, how old are your kids again? If they're as young as I think they are, don't give up on the tennis just yet but definitely don't keep pushing them if they obviously do not like it. Stop for now and then revisit the idea again in a few years when they've developed more coordination.

I never pushed my girls with art or music, but it has always been a part of our lives. They are surrounded with both, and I include both in their education. Katie is gifted in art; Sarah, not so much. But, then, Sarah is better in music than Katie. So there you go. Katie may make a career out of her passion (art). Sarah is still quite young, and I don't know what she'll do. I suspect she'll work with people somehow, as she's inherited her dad's people skills.

All that to say that I have favored the approach of providing opportunities when the girls have expressed an interest in something, holding them to the commitments they make, giving them incentives to practice and keep trying, but not pushing them beyond that commitment if they obviously hate or dislike the thing they've been doing. The opening remains, though. Katie showed a natural aptitude for music, but she didn't love it the first time around. After several years, she's asking again to learn an instrument.

(Now I just need to take the time to teach her! Lessons with someone else will follow if she shows a true interest in it.)

I have also set some non-negotiables. For example, art and music are non-negotiable. They are a part of our life and education. Art history, music history, art and music appreciation? Yes. Opportunities to learn art and music? Yes. Science is another non-negotiable. We are a nature-oriented family. Period. But I wouldn't push my girls to be an artist, musician, or biologist; they would have to show a true passion for them. Once I see that true passion, then I push (gently) during those times when they're neglecting their loves.

Does that make sense at all?

[Frelga]

I have not read the book, nor do I plan to. I did however read a review that I agree with, regardless of how it relates to the actual book. The reviewer wrote that while Chua imagines she is being tough on her kids, in reality, she is coddling them.

The most challenging part about growing up is not making good grades and giving recitals. It is dealing with your peers. It is navigating the straits of middle and high school social environments, where boys can be cruel and girls can be exquisitely vicious (and kind, and generous, and talented). It is finding a kindred spirit, and learning to live with people you don't like and who don't like you, and dealing with people who don't look, think and believe like you, and learning who YOU are, and coming to respect them for what they are.

Compared to that, extra hours of piano practice are dead easy.

The (para)phrase "Westerners assume fragility, the Chinese assume strength" has stuck with me as it strikes me as a potentially powerful insight.

It's one of those phrases that sound slick but on reflection don't actually mean anything, IMO.

In my observation, the Chinese, like the Soviet, system is geared toward producing prodigies. The American system is geared toward nurturing every child to their full potential, so long as the parents can afford it. And so, the American approach tends to be less rigorous, but more respectful of the child, and more reliant on positive reinforcement than on merciless elimination of flaws.

Having grown up with the first and raising my son with the second, I do think the American system can benefit from a bit more structure, but on the balance, I think it has the potential to produce a stronger, more rounded person who is STILL damn good at doing what they do.