The Magic Mountain

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Shirriff Note: Friends, the topic came up which other group reads we might do after P&P, and before you can say "Hans Castorp" we were in a discussion about The Magic Mountain. We've moved it out here to the library where everyone can join in and our business room won't be cluttered with literary discussion. (Thanks, Voronwë, for hosting this note.) Jn
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I was thinking if we read something from German literature, there'd be no end of virgins!

The Magic Mountain

[Jnyusa]

Ah yes! One of the greatest books of the 20th century.

Jn

[truehobbit]

I was thinking if we read something from German literature, there'd be no end of virgins!

The Magic Mountain

Ooooh, lovely book!
I'm always surprised, though, this is so famous in the English speaking world - why do you think this is?
It's the only full-length novel by Thomas Mann that I've read, and I loved it (even though the philosophical discourses got on my nerves occasionally, and I didn't like the end at all).

So, is it one you've read? And Jny, too?

[Jnyusa]

Yes, I've read it.

I think it's popular in English because its persepctive is more universal than some of Mann's other works. A lot of his stuff has a very personal feel to it which is more accessible to German readers, I think, than to other readers.

In the Magic Mountain the characters, though extraordinarily vivid, are more archetypal and they resonate for anyone of 'European' (which includes us Americans) culture born in the 20th century.

It's also very German, and Mann was very critical of Germany. I hope it won't be too tough a discussion for you, Hobby. If I were German, I'm not sure I would be entirely comfortable discussing Mann with non-Germans. He touches on stuff that isn't usually talked about 'outside the family' if you know what I mean. Deep cultural identity stuff.

The long philosophical discourses were the best part of the book, imo! But only because they led up to such an unsettling denouement which, I think, was pretty much the main point of the book. By themselves they just would have been over the top.

Jn

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not sure that I was entirely serious about discussing The Magic Mountain, though yes I have read it, several times. It is definitely one of my very favorite works and (not surprisingly) I agree with Jn that the long philosophical discourses were the best part of the book, but I also think that they would make it a far more challenging discussion then even the Silmarillion discussion.

[truehobbit]

Wow, Jny and Voronwë, thanks for your answers!

Voronwë, I agree it would be a bit much to discuss it in detail.
I'm so amazed that you and Jny loved the philosophical discourses best!

But only because they led up to such an unsettling denouement which, I think, was pretty much the main point of the book. By themselves they just would have been over the top.

Makes me think I probably didn't understand the whole thing!
I think I'll have a look at the ending again and see how it relates to (what I remember of) the philosophy.

What I liked about it was the ideas of life and death and time and how the protagonist's perception of them changed. I'd have happily done without the philosophy, but that would have harmed the book's feeling of "time", I think.

A lot of his stuff has a very personal feel to it which is more accessible to German readers, I think, than to other readers.

The most popular of his works here is "Buddenbrooks", which I haven't read, though. The story of a merchant family. No idea if it would be difficult for non-Germans.
Have you read more of Thomas Mann?

If I were German, I'm not sure I would be entirely comfortable discussing Mann with non-Germans. He touches on stuff that isn't usually talked about 'outside the family' if you know what I mean. Deep cultural identity stuff.

I don't remember any of this from Magic Mountain! Maybe that's because it is so much part of cultural identity?
Like I said, for me it was wonderful how the book conveyed ideas of time and life and death both explicitly and implicitly, by making you feel, through the narrative, what he is talking about.
There are a few favourite moments for me in the book, and they are all on that subject.

The Mann who could be said to be airing the dirty laundry in public I'd have thought would be his brother, Heinrich Mann. Some very famous books by him (which I haven't read yet, though) - are they similarly famous in the English speaking world as Thomas's books?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hobby, I've never even heard of Heinrich Mann.

The only other work by Thomas that I have read is Death in Venice, which I enjoyed, but which made much less of impression on me then The Magic Mountain. I have never read Buddenbrooks. I am surprised to learn that Mann's award of the Nobel Prize in literature in 1929 was "principally for his great novel, Buddenbrooks, which has won steadily increased recognition as one of the classic works of contemporary literature" and not for The Magic Mountain, which had been published five years previously in 1924.

[Whistler]

I like books about tigers.

[Jnyusa]

But only because they led up to such an unsettling denouement which, I think, was pretty much the main point of the book. By themselves they just would have been over the top.

Makes me think I probably didn't understand the whole thing!

I was thinking specifically of the duel between Settembrini and Napthali. It is not at the end but perhaps 2/3 of the way through ... or it might be later than that. (It's been many years since I read Magic Mountain.)

My mother-in-law used to say that Dr. Faustus was the personification of Germany in Mann's writing; but I have long thought that it was Naphtali who served that purpose. I thought the duel represented the impossibility of Germany reconciling itself to atheistic Humanism; and the closing of the book as WWI begins sort of underscored this idea that Western civilization had evolved in a way that Germany would always be at war with it.

Interestingly enough, there was a performance of Parsifal at the Metropolitan opera in the 1980s (not well-received, btw) in which Kundry was made explicitly Jewish. There was a lot of debate over the legitimacy of this representation, and I felt that, metaphorically at least, it was defensible. And I suspected that the director had gotten this idea from Mann - that the Jew would be a potent metaphor for Germany's relationship to the rest of Western civilization. The two cultures (Jewish and German), though superficially quite different, have a lot of premises in common, and their relationship has swung through the wildest extremes. Besides the US, Germany is the only country where Jews were fully assimilated; and yet both clung to tribal identifications which proved disastrous. That is not so far, you see, from what Wagner was doing with the character of Kundry, though he personally would not have put a Jewess in his opera.

What I liked about it was the ideas of life and death and time and how the protagonist's perception of them changed. I'd have happily done without the philosophy, but that would have harmed the book's feeling of "time", I think.

Yes! The feeling of protracted time is very powerfully done. By the end of the book the reader is desperate to escape the Mountain, and I wasn't convinced that Hans ever really did.

The most popular of his works here is "Buddenbrooks", which I haven't read, though. The story of a merchant family. No idea if it would be difficult for non-Germans. Have you read more of Thomas Mann?

I was actually thinking of Buddenbrooks! I have the book and have started it several times but never got through it. I read Death in Venice of course, and Tonio Kruger, and a story or novelette called "Joseph and His Brothers." I would like to read Dr. Faustus but my mother-in-law put me off from this! It was the only book of Mann's that she'd read and she would lecture for hours on how it was the greatest of all his books and no one had really read Mann until they'd read Dr. Faustus. So I sort of boycotted it for that reason.

I don't remember any of this from Magic Mountain! Maybe that's because it is so much part of cultural identity?

Well, I felt that the characters were archetypal, representing different aspects of the German psyche ... some of them are rather disturbing if you think of them as representing a national identity.

The Mann who could be said to be airing the dirty laundry in public I'd have thought would be his brother, Heinrich Mann. Some very famous books by him (which I haven't read yet, though) - are they similarly famous in the English speaking world as Thomas's books?

No, I've never read Heinrich Mann. Didn't even know that Thomas had a brother who wrote books! So I guess they're not as famous here as Thomas' books are. I would not be familiar with Thomas at all except that there was a college course offered in Hesse and Mann, which I took because I was a fan of Hesse. (Quite predictable for a young person in the 1960s.) I was afraid I would be daunted by Mann, when I saw the thickness of Magic Mountain! But he's so wonderful - deeper than Hesse, I think. I came out of the course thinking Mann much the better of the two.

Jn

[Whistler]

I mean, tigers who engage in philosophical discourses.

[Primula Baggins]

I like books with people like this.


Are there people like this in Thomas Mann?

[Whistler]

Are there books with people like that and tigers...engaging in philosophical discourses?

Hey, wait! Is that from the cover of your novel? If your novel doesn't have any tigers, I would put some in.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

<Resists urge to abuse power by placing above picture in Prim's avatar>

[Jnyusa]

How come he needs a space helmet and she doesn't?

Jn

[Primula Baggins]

Why, yes, Whistler, this is proposed cover art for my forthcoming novel. (I'm going to have to revise a bit to make it fit the story.)

And Jn, why does he need a space helmet but not a shirt?

(My theory is that the lady is wearing pheromone perfume, and the gentleman wants to keep his virtue.)

Voronwë, you power-mad monster! It's good to know there's something you'll stop at. . . .

[Jnyusa]

(My theory is that the lady is wearing pheromone perfume, and the gentleman wants to keep his virtue.)

An excellent diagnosis.

Jn

[truehobbit]

Well, if I had to choose between a book about tigers and books with people like this


I would choose the latter. (Sorry Whistler! That chick is just too hot, and she seems to be a ticklish situation, too, so that's better than tigers. Even philosophical ones.)

Are there books with people like that and tigers...engaging in philosophical discourses?

If not, you should write one!

Are there people like this in Thomas Mann?

I think this is actually the cover to the lost sequel to "The Confessions of Felix Krull", which was meant to be "Felix goes to Mars". It remained unfinished, and for some reason the family refused to publish it posthumously. The manuscript disappeared entirely not much later.

Jny - - sorry for osgiliating, everybody else, but I'm just totally thrilled with the discussion! (I wonder if we should move it to the Library somehow.)

Hehe, I've heard about Hesse's fame in the 60s - never read him myself.
Don't know anything about Dr Faustus, I'm afraid.
I know the first volume of the "Joseph" series - very beautiful, and it conveyed the feeling of a past where myth and history are impossible to separate from each other. (Learnt a lot about Old Testament stories, too, which I knew nothing about before. )

My mother-in-law used to say that Dr. Faustus was the personification of Germany in Mann's writing; but I have long thought that it was Naphtali who served that purpose.

Hmmh, I think that's quite interesting. I'd never thought of it, and, naturally, I don't know what Mann thought of this. But Naphtali is a Jesuit, and AFAIK Jesuits had a very bad reputation in Germany at the time, partly, I think, for their supra-national stance on things.
I don't know - if I had to decide spontaneously, I'd say that Hans himself is the epitome of Germany - he doesn't know in what direction he's going, and the atheist humanism (which however is also nationalist and violent in its revolutionary purposes) is a great influence on him, but he's also fascinated with the reactionary violence Naphtali represents.
But on the other hand, I didn't understand the end at all - I didn't see any symbolic meaning in the outbreak of the war, so you might be on to something there.

that the Jew would be a potent metaphor for Germany's relationship to the rest of Western civilization. ...
Besides the US, Germany is the only country where Jews were fully assimilated; and yet both clung to tribal identifications which proved disastrous.

Wow - I think that's a fascinating point! Although it would be a bit odd to make the Jew represent the rest of Western civilisation, I think? The last half-sentence would provide a good parallel - just like Jews and Germans, so Germans and the rest of Europe seemed similar and yet each cling to their tribal identifications... Still, if I saw such a metaphor I probably wouldn't understand it because I wouldn't understand how the Jew was standing for the rest of Western culture.

Glad you agree about the subject and effects of "time" in the book.

Well, I felt that the characters were archetypal, representing different aspects of the German psyche ... some of them are rather disturbing if you think of them as representing a national identity.

Hmmh - I would have read them as general psyche of turn of the century people. Why would it represent national identity?

And no one knows Heinrich Mann? WOW!
Maybe he's too much the socialist to have become famous in the US!
But he didn't write such a lot, so that might explain it.
On the other hand I thought he might be known, because he also moved to the US during the war, and died in California.

I read his two historical/political novels about Henri IV - a good read, once I got used to his ideosyncratic style, and not a bad connection of history and comment on current politics (something bound to be tricky).

But I'm sure some people here at least know the movie that was made from one of his most famous books, "Der Blaue Engel" (The Blue Angel), directed by Joseph von Sternberg, with Marlene Dietrich as a nightclub singer?

That is based on "Professor Unrat" - I couldn't find that in English
The other famous novel of his is "Der Untertan", for which I found "Loyal Subject" as an English title. This depicts the mentality of Germans during the Empire: being a tyrant to those below and blind obedience and sucking up to those above.

Thomas Mann didn't like his brother's radicalism. I think that's why in much of modern German teaching about literature Heinrich Mann has the better reputation, because he's portrayed as the revolutionary, while Thomas becomes the reactionary in that view.
I think that Thomas, too, analysed society critically, so I wouldn't subscribe to that view - but it did take him longer than Heinrich to turn away from the worldviews of the Empire.

[truehobbit]

How come he needs a space helmet and she doesn't?

(My theory is that the lady is wearing pheromone perfume, and the gentleman wants to keep his virtue.)

My theory is that it's because men can't take as much as women - of course she has no problem to make do with a little less oxygen, but he needs a helmet! Isn't that just so typical?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I see Hans as representing not just Germany, but Western civilization in general. The struggle for his soul between the secular humanism of Herr Settembrini and the religious totalitarinism of Herr Naphta (not sure why you guys refer to him as Naphtali), balanced against the hedonism of Mynheer Peeperkorn, and most of all the Circerian tempress Clawdia Chauchat represents the struggle for the "soul" of Western civilization, which exploded inevitably into World War I.

Edited to add: I've read quite a bit of Hesse: Steppenwolf, Narcissus and Goldmund, The Glass Bead Game, and, of course, Siddhartha.

[Whistler]