Ender's Game

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Impenitent
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Ender's Game

Post by Impenitent »

I've only recently come across this book after Alatar sent me the audiobook (which is a really wonderful audio adaptation!) and enjoyed it very much. A very powerful psychological exploration as well as a ripping story.

And both my kids have enjoyed it too (son is a little young, but the gaming aspect had him hooked, of course! :D ).

And now my daughter has discovered that this is the first of a series. The rest of the series is not readily available in Oz so I'd have to order it online, with all the concommitant mailing costs.

So I'd like to know if anyone can tell me whether the remainder of the books are worth it? All your opinions will be very welcome!
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I've heard that there's a sharp dropoff. I read the first and enjoyed it, and I've heard the third called unreadable. I read the second but have no memory of it, positive or negative.

But Card is somewhat unpopular for political reasons (he's a very conservative, anti-gay Mormon).

I honestly went off him before I knew any of that; his stories can be very cruel, cruel beyond what I think is necessary for honesty, and at some point I just went eyewww and stopped.

I say this as a writer who has been publicly criticized, more than once, for excessive cruelty to my characters. Everyone's mileage varies. Card goes beyond what I can handle. If you read my first book and it was rocky for you, don't read Card.
Last edited by Primula Baggins on Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by River »

Ender's Game is almost de facto required reading for all young nerds and/or anyone involved with the military. We've all been Ender in some way at some point in our lives. The rest of the series, well...

The story line that follows Bean is kinda fluffy, I think. I haven't made it all the way through that fork in the series mainly because I just haven't been that into it. It's fun, but it doesn't grip me in the middle and twist me around the way Ender's Game did.

Speaker for the Dead I liked. Xenocide and Children of the Mind weird out completely and I'm not even sure what the point was in hindsight. Ender's Game was about doing terrible things for a greater good. Speaker for the Dead was about redemption for those terrible things. Maybe the two after are continuances of that redemption? But I'm not sure he needed to write two more books to finish that story.

Well, maybe he did to give it a happy ending.

I can get far enough past Card's politics to enjoy his stories, but his writing is, as Prim said, over the brutal line at times. I read one short story of his in which the main character is convicted of some sort of crime and sentenced to execution until he repents. They've made multiple copies of his body, see, and download his brain while they kill him so he'll remember dying and waking up in a new body. Over and over. And, just to drive the point home, Card goes into graphic descriptions of the execution methods. They never use the same one twice and they're all pretty tortuous. And then the main character has to, once he's been resurrected, retrieve his own corpse... :help:
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Post by Crucifer »

I loved Ender's Game. I thought it was brilliant. Really amazing.

Speaker for the Dead wasn't so great...

Xenocide is, as Prim said, almost unreadable. I never got as far as Children of the Mind.

As for the excessive brutality, I don't mind that sort of thing. Well, it has on occasion made me flinch while reading, but I think that that can serve a purpose... Maybe I've been desensitized, I don't know. Of course, when I write myself, I prefer to hint at brutality as opposed to being explicit, but i don't really mind it when I read it.
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Post by solicitr »

Prim wrote:But Card is somewhat unpopular for political reasons (he's a very conservative, anti-gay Mormon).

I honestly went off him before I knew any of that
Does this imply that otherwise you would have "gone off him" when you did discover his politics? ;)

In fact, Card is hardly "very conservative:"

Card identifies himself as a Democrat because he is pro-gun control/anti-National Rifle Association, highly critical of free-market capitalism, and because he believes that the Republican party in the South continues to tolerate racism. Card encapsulated his views thus:
Maybe the Democrats will even accept the idea that sometimes the people don't want to create your utopian vision (especially when your track record is disastrous and your "utopias" keep looking like hell)... The Democratic Party ought to be standing as the bulwark of the little guy against big money and rapacious free-market capitalism, here and abroad. After all, the Republicans seem to be dominated by their own group of insane utopians—when they're not making huggy-huggy with all those leftover racists from the segregationist past.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

He donates significant amounts of money and publicity to causes I oppose. If I still enjoyed his books, I would still read them, but I'd get them from the library. I stopped buying them years ago. This is not censorship, this is me getting to decide where my own money ends up.

I'm generally a buyer of books, not a borrower, and if I enjoy them when I read them, I keep them permanently. I have seven Card books on my shelf at the moment.

That's the last thing I'm saying about politics here, but I wanted to respond to that. This is a thread about Card's writing.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Maria »

Ender's Game is a good kid's book.

Speaker for the Dead is an adult followup, and is much better, in my opinion. Xenocide is the somewhat bothersome middle book (I always skip the OCD episodes on re-reads) , and Children of the Mind is the mind blowing conclusion! I absolutely love the Speaker series taken as a whole, and his philotic twining theory has influenced my own view of reality. :)

Yes, Card always includes some sort of torture of someone in all his books. :( He's not as icky as SM Stirling, but there's always something terrible and painful that happens to someone in his books. But it's usually soon over. If you just accept that and get on with the story, then you'll have an easier time appreciating the works as a whole which are usually VERY good.

I didn't like the Bean series as well. They were too political.

My other favorites of Card's is "Enchantment" and the Alvin Maker series. :) We are listening to the fifth Alvin book right now on our commutes and it's really well done. I've read the books before, of course, but my husband hasn't and he's quite captivated by them.

Card's earlier works are more brutal on the characters and I never have felt the need to re-read any of them.

I'm an occasional visitor to hatrack.com, and sometimes Card talks to fans in the forums. :)
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Post by Impenitent »

Maybe I'll try to find them in the library rather than going out to order them immediately. If she likes them, I'll think about purchasing.

Maria, I'm surprised you consider Ender's Game strictly a kids' book; I think perhaps young adult, and certainly fully grown adult, simply because of the psychological ground it covers.

Or, maybe, my capacity and/or literary tastes haven't moved beyond kids' books. ;)

edited because I couldn't live with my misplaced apostrophes. <<shudders>>
Last edited by Impenitent on Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Crucifer »

Ender's Game is a kid's book?

:shock:

Pretty tough kids...
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Post by River »

Impenitent wrote: Or, maybe, my capacity and/or literary tastes haven't moved beyond kid's books. ;)
Or maybe some books marketed as kid's books resonate with adults too. Harry Potter was supposed to be a kid's series. The Hobbit was also a children's book.
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Post by narya »

My observations are similar to Maria's, for the most part. Ender's is a very good book, especially for angsty, bright teens, and is required reading at the 7-8 grade level in the school district my kids went to. I read it to them at a much younger age. I did not read Speaker of the Dead because I didn't particularly want to explain the "adult" theme that drove some of the characters. My kids eventually read them on their own. My daughter and I both found the OCD parts quite illuminating, since she has OCD (thankfully, under control with meds).

What amazed me is how well Card predicted the influence of bloggers, before the Internet.
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Post by Impenitent »

What amazed me is how well Card predicted the influence of bloggers, before the Internet.
Yes, I had to keep reminding myself that the 'desks' he was talking about and the remote communication and networking was being written at a time when mainframes were high-tech!
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Post by Maria »

I like Ender's Game but then I like quite a few "kid's books". My husband and I re-listen to the audio Harry Potter books about every other year or so. :) They are just *good*.

I read Ender's Game as an adult, and didn't even realize it was a kid's book until I read more of his other work- some of which I would not want young kids reading! :shock:

I was really shocked when we started the Alvin Maker series audio books and a little kid's voice announced at the beginning, "This Is Audble for Kids". Maybe the first couple of books can be counted as kids books as a stretch, if you hope your kids don't ask too many questions about slavery and rape... but the rest of the series delves too deep into adult issues that one really doesn't want little kids asking questions about yet. They'd be OK for teens, but not pre-teens I think.

I like the first Bean book a bit better than Ender's Game, I think. Seeing the same story from Bean's perspective was quite enlightening, and put's Bean's role in a whole new light that it would be sad to miss, in my opinion. I don't even remember the other books in the Bean series very well- they simply weren't that engaging- but I liked the first one. :)
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Post by Impenitent »

What is the title of the first Bean book? I don't know any of them at all. Ender's Game is my first contact and my daughter actually googled to find out the rest.

I liked Bean. :) He has such spunk. What is the book title?
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Post by River »

Ender's Shadow.
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Post by Crucifer »

Very appropriate name.
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Post by Impenitent »

thank you :)
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Post by Scarlet »

Ender's Shadow was the first book I read of this series. For what it's worth, I really enjoyed it. :)
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Post by Folca »

I loved Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. Xenocide and Children of the Mind took a lot more effort, but I fought them interesting in their own right, having to re-read large sections to figure out where it was going on occasion. As for Ender's Shadow, I found it hollow and stupid to demean Ender. Bean is far more a contrived character than Ender, in my opinion. But Ender's Game is very high on my list of favorites.
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Post by WampusCat »

Ender's Game was excellent, but even it was too brutal for my taste. I think I'd best steer clear of the others.
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