Scholars set date for Odysseus' bloody homecoming

Discussion of fine arts and literature.
Post Reply
User avatar
BrianIsSmilingAtYou
Posts: 1233
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia

Scholars set date for Odysseus' bloody homecoming

Post by BrianIsSmilingAtYou »

Scholars set date for Odysseus' bloody homecoming

I always find this kind of research fascinating:
WASHINGTON - Using clues from star and sun positions mentioned by the ancient Greek poet Homer, scholars think they have determined the date when King Odysseus returned from the Trojan War and slaughtered a group of suitors who had been pressing his wife to marry one of them.

It was on April 16, 1178 B.C. that the great warrior struck with arrows, swords and spears, killing those who sought to replace him, a pair of researchers say in Monday's online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Science.

Experts have long debated whether the books of Homer reflect the actual history of the Trojan War and its aftermath.

Marcelo O. Magnasco of Rockefeller University in New York and Constantino Baikouzis of the Astronomical Observatory in La Plata, Argentina, acknowledge they had to make some assumptions to determine the date Odysseus returned to his kingdom of Ithaca.

But interpreting clues in Homer's "Odyssey" as references to the positions of stars and a total eclipse of the sun allowed them to determine when a particular set of conditions would have occurred.

"What we'd like to achieve is to get the reader to pick up the 'Odyssey' and read it again, and ponder," said Magnasco. "And to realize that our understanding of these texts is quite imperfect, and even when entire libraries have been written about Homeric studies, there is still room for further investigation."

Their study potentially adds support to the accuracy of Homer's writing.

"Under the assumption that our work turns out to be correct, it adds to the evidence that he knew what he was talking about," Magnasco said. "It still does not prove the historicity of the return of Odysseus," he said. "It only proves that Homer knew about certain astronomical phenomena that happened much before his time."

Homer reports that on the day of the slaughter the sun is blotted from the sky, possibly a reference to an eclipse. In addition, he mentions more than once that it is the time of a new moon, which is necessary for a total eclipse, the researchers say.

Other clues include:

_Six days before the slaughter, Venus is visible and high in the sky.

_Twenty-nine days before, two constellations — the Pleiades and Bootes — are simultaneously visible at sunset.

_And 33 days before, Mercury is high at dawn and near the western end of its trajectory. This is the researchers' interpretation, anyway. Homer wrote that Hermes, the Greek name for Mercury, traveled far west to deliver a message.

"Of course we believe it's amply justified, otherwise we would not commit it to print. However we do recognize there's less ammunition to defend this interpretation than the others," Magnasco said.

"Even though the other astronomical references are much clearer, our interpretation of them as allusions to astronomical phenomena is an assumption," he added in an interview via e-mail.

For example, Magnasco said, Homer writes that as Odysseus spread his sails out of Ogygia, "sleep did not weigh on his eyelids as he watched the Pleiades, and late-setting Bootes, and the Bear."

"We assume he means that as Odysseus set sail shortly after sunset, at nautical twilight the Pleiades and Bootes were simultaneously visible, and that Bootes would be the later-setting of the two," Magnasco explained. "It is a good assumption because every member of his audience would know what was being discussed, as the Pleiades and Bootes were important to them to know the passage of the seasons and would be very familiar with which times of the year they were visible. Remember the only calendar they had was the sky."

Since the occurrence of an eclipse and the various star positions repeat over different periods of time, Magnasco and Baikouzis set out to calculate when they would all occur in the order mentioned in the "Odyssey."

And their result has Odysseus exacting his revenge on April 16, 1178 B.C.
BrianIs :) AtYou
Image

All of my nieces and nephews at my godson/nephew Nicholas's Medical School graduation. Now a neurosurgical resident at University of Arizona, Tucson.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 46145
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I heard about this on NPR. Fascinating stuff.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
vison
Best friends forever
Posts: 11961
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:33 pm
Location: Over there.

Post by vison »

Read this yesterday. Excessively kewl. 8)

And, oddly enough, last evening my husband watched a movie about Alexander the Great - the one with Angelina Jolie as Olympias. I watched about 5 minutes of it, and I must say it was about the worst movie I've seen since I saw PJ's "King Kong". What a piece of dreck. Jeez.

Some years ago there was a tv series of the Illiad. It was wonderful. Am I dreaming that Irene Pappas played Penelope?
Dig deeper.
User avatar
solicitr
Posts: 3728
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Engineering a monarchist coup d'etat

Post by solicitr »

Are we really to believe that the oral tradition Homer was working from preserved the exact dates and positions of the heavens like that? For goodness sake, Tolkien couldn't even keep those things straight in his own story!
User avatar
Primula Baggins
Living in hope
Posts: 40005
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Contact:

Post by Primula Baggins »

Soli, I think they did it for fun.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
User avatar
WampusCat
Creature of the night
Posts: 8464
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:36 pm
Location: Where least expected

Post by WampusCat »

Way cool. I just read it to Brendan, who is in the room with me, and his response was:

So how did Homer know what the stars looked like if he was blind?
User avatar
BrianIsSmilingAtYou
Posts: 1233
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia

Post by BrianIsSmilingAtYou »

Homer, described a lot of things visually with great vividness.

If he was blind, as is commonly asserted, he may not have been blind from birth. In addition, since he was working in an oral tradition, many of the details that he used in his poem may have come from existing sources in that tradition, so he would not have to have seen them himself to be able to provide such descriptions.

As for solicitr's comment about preserving the exact dates--if you will re-read the original post, it is clear that the exact dates were not preserved, which is why these scholars saw fit to use textual clues to try to determine what the date might be.

The other half of that is whether the astronomical details would be preserved. It is well known that ancient societies had a good working knowledge of astronomy, to the extent that it was possible to develop a working calendar, as well as the dates and times of astronomical events such as eclipses (one of the phenomenon in use here).

Mariners in particular (such as Odysseus is portrayed) would be well-versed in practical astronomy for the purpose of navigation. Consequently, I don't find the appearance of such details surprising. One might question their accuracy, but it is interesting to note that the solution provided is consistent with the time frame generally given for when the story takes place. If the solution was 500BC or 2000 BC or anything AD, we could easily conclude that the details were bogus.

The fact that the details are consistent with the generally accepted time frame is encouraging for the veracity of the result.

The same skepticism was voiced about the idea that the epics could be used to locate Troy, but they were so used, and Troy was found.

BrianIs :) AtYou
Image

All of my nieces and nephews at my godson/nephew Nicholas's Medical School graduation. Now a neurosurgical resident at University of Arizona, Tucson.
Jnyusa
Posts: 7283
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:04 am

Post by Jnyusa »

Oh, I have great confidence in the empirical knowledge of ancient peoples.

Astronomy in particular was of supreme importance for people in temperate zones because that is what told them when the seasons begin and end. You can see from the distribution of language groups that the early migrations which eventually scattered us all over the globe were dominated by east-west movement in temperate zones, and I am convinced that the reason for this was to preserve astronomical knowledge.

Eclipses allow lunar and solar cycles to be recalibrated to one another for calendar-keeping purposes, and the ancient Greeks are known to have understood and used the metonic cycles at least from 1700 BCE.

Just by the way, I have read convincing arguments that Homer was a woman. ;)
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
ToshoftheWuffingas
Posts: 1579
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:34 pm

Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

I used to love reading about the Mycaenean and Minoan period fuelled initially by Mary Renault's and Henry Treece's novels. I know there has been substantial research and discoveries in recent years. Is there a good popular overview published that hauls all the new knowledge together? The last thing I read in detail a long time ago was about the discoveries at Pylos.
<a><img></a>
User avatar
Folca
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 10:40 pm
Location: The Great Northwest

Post by Folca »

vison wrote:Some years ago there was a tv series of the Illiad. It was wonderful. Am I dreaming that Irene Pappas played Penelope?
When and is it available on DVD? I love the Illiad!!!
"Ut Prosim"
"There are some things that it is better to begin than refuse, even though the end may be dark" Aragorn
"Those who commit honorable acts need no forgiveness"
http://killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
Post Reply