Terry Pratchett diagnosed with Alzheimers

Post by **solicitr** » Tue May 26, 2009 6:57 pm

OK, Frelga, I understand now.

I was thrown off by the 'betrayed fools' part.

I completely disagree with (i.e. agree with you about) the bogus 'glory' stuff, the 'dulce et decorum,' the romanticized, shined-up version of "war" that bears no relation to the terrible reality. It cuts both ways: Sherman was a realist who knew what war was- and thus understood that waging war means wreaking horror, that warfare is total, brutal, and savage.... and must be waged thus, when it must be waged. That's what he did.

The shiny lie cuts both ways. Many of today's 'fools' seem to think you can have an antiseptic war, where only the enemy troops get hurt and civilians miraculously escape harm. You can't.

Post by **WampusCat** » Tue May 26, 2009 6:58 pm

I understood the use of the quote, Frelga, and appreciate it.

War is hell. And often folly. And often necessary. But whatever the wisdom or necessity of it, the losses are always regrettable, and the sacrifices should be remembered with gratitude.

That is different, though, from glorifying the whole concept of war.

Post by **Frelga** » Tue May 26, 2009 7:22 pm

Soli, I think we've reached the common page now.

I don't believe the "fools" applied to the dead men in the story, rather to any future persons who might be seduced by the shiny monument with an appropriate quote. It is Vimes speaking after all. Nor, obviously, do I believe that all those who died in real wars were betrayed OR fools.

And yes, if (generic) you decide to go to war, you decide to cause death, destruction and misery of the soldiers and the innocent.

Here's the slightly extended quote, the conversation that takes place at the neglected cemetery where the dead men are buried.

Vetinari: "'You know, it has often crossed my mind that those men deserve a proper memorial of some sort."
Vimes: "Oh yes? In one of the main squares, perhaps?"
Vetinari: "Yes, that would be a good idea."
Vimes: "Perhaps a tableau in bronze? All seven of them raising the flag, perhaps?"
Vetinari: "Bronze, yes."
Vimes: "Really? And some sort of inspiring slogan?"
Vetinari: "Yes, indeed. Something like, perhaps, 'They Did The Job They Had To Do'?"
Vimes: "No. How dare you? How dare you! At this time! In this place! They did the job they didn't have to do, and they died doing it, and you can't give them anything. Do you understand? They fought for those who'd been abandoned, they fought for one another, and they were betrayed. Men like them always are. What good would a statue be? It'd just inspire new fools to believe they're going to be heroes. They wouldn't want that. Just let them be. For ever."

Now if I could only find Colon and Nobbs quote from Jingo, the one that begins with "War - what is it good for?"

Tue May 26, 2009 8:14 pm

Thanks, Frelga. (And for that matter, thanks to soli, as well.)

Post by **Inanna** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:29 am

Dammit. Can't believe I missed this conversation!!

I came here to supplement Frelga's lightning as an inefficient assassin quote with this one:

Lightning prodded the crags like an old man trying to get an elusive blackberry pip out of his false teeth

- Maskerade[/i]

Post by **Teremia** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:41 am

Ohhh my!! I have just discovered a Terry Pratchett novel that I really, really don't like! And here I was beginning to be pretty sure that I would love everything he'd ever written. But no.

The culprit is . . . Interesting Times.

It's like a dumbed-down watered-down version of the books I like: "funny" but in an effort-filled way, and entirely without that thread of philosophical depth that has won me over in his other books. Like endless Monty Python skits that don't quite come off.

In fact, "Interesting Times" is exactly the sort of book I used to look at Pratchett covers and imagine those books must be -- which is why I never read them before Recently, to my now great regret.

So are there other Pratchett books I should avoid? I'd really rather go back to my hero worship mode, if possible. And forget all about this little "I. T." fiasco . . . .

Post by **WampusCat** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:59 am

Not that I've discovered (but I haven't read Interesting Times yet).

Right now I'm in the midst of Pyramids, and love it.

Post by **Frelga** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:19 pm

Teremia, really? I LOVE Interesting Times. Cohen the Barbarian is one of my favorite characters, right there with Nanny Ogg, and I thought Rincewind was at his best. And I didn't think it was devoid of depth, although it is not built around a thought experiment in the same way as Hogfather is. But it does make a statement that ideas are not worth fighting for, but people are.

I hesitate to make suggestions, but perhaps another reading would improve the book? That was my experience with Pyramides. Blah on the first go, wow! on the second. But if not, maybe avoid Rincewind books, as they tend to be on the ighter side.

Post by **Teremia** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:02 pm

Before I read it again, I have to get to the end, which is still fifty pages away.

But now that I know wise people have loved this book, I will certainly finish it.

Before this I read The Wee Free Men and Hat Full of Sky and liked them both very much. And of course I loved Night Watch. And Hogfather. And that other one, whatever it was. And also Nation.

Even scratching Rincewind tomes off my list leaves me with quite a nice number of books to look forward to, and that makes me very happy.

Post by **Impenitent** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:50 am

Teremia, I was hooked on Pratchett through the witches books. They did it. Nanny Ogg, Granny Weatherwax and Magrat Garlick, their village of Bad Ass in the Kingdom of Lancre - these are absolutely amongst the most delicious inventions in Fantasy.

Absolutely Adore Them!

Post by **River** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:55 am

Guards! Guards! did it for me. It's been nice watching Carrot progress.

Post by **WampusCat** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:05 am

Guards! Guards! did it for me, too. Vimes and Carrot were worth following to other books.

Post by **Frelga** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:06 am

I started with Feet of Clay. Pratchett had me as soon as Cheery Littlebottom entered Vimes' office.

Teremia, maybe try one more Rincewind book?

Would be a shame to not read them if there's a chance that you would like them.

Post by **Impenitent** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:26 am

Carrot, and Vimes, and Cheery, and Angua. I think Angua is a great achievement.

Post by **WampusCat** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:32 pm

Definitely. His characters seem so real to me.

Post by **Teremia** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:33 am

Oh, I love Angua, too. I also read "The Fifth Elephant" and really, really liked it.

And actually "Interesting Times" -- I have to admit! -- got a lot better in the last seventy pages or so. So I'm not as grumbly about it as I was yesterday. Tomorrow we start mad travel; maybe I can find another Pratchett in some airport somewhere, to carry me through....

Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:11 am

I think this is as good a place as any to mention that there is any interesting essay in the latest issue of Mythlore (by the editor of Mythlore, Janet Croft, called "The Education of a Witch: Tiffany Aching, Hermione Granger, and Gendered Magic in Discworld and Potterworld." It can be read at: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ntent;col1. I'd be curious what people here who are fans of both Pratchett and Rowling think of it.

Post by **Frelga** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:33 am

Very interesting article, thank you, V.

I'm on second page, and already have a quibble with the author.

Opposing [the rural Ramtops] is the city [of Ankh-Morpork], where there are of course some occupations that are traditionally female, but where at wealthier levels (especially among the nouveau riches) women are more decorative than useful and their lack of occupation is a status symbol for their male relatives

I don't see where Ms. Croft got that idea. Both genders at the wealthy level are idle. Sybill Ramkin, for instance, is much less decorative than Lord Selachii. Rosie Palm has as much power in the Council as other leaders of the Guilds. Topsy Lavish is the chairman of the bank, and Pucci Lavish plots as much as her brother. AM has by no means reached gender equality, but women wielding power of all kinds are not exactly novelty.

And Susan is not Death's apprentice!

And PTerry said Esk is coming back in I Shall Wear Midnight (sends prayers that Sir Terrence is well enough to finish it and more).

Post by **solicitr** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:47 pm

I may be a minority, but I thought The Fifth Elephant to be one of PTerry's weaker efforts. His 'travelogue' books generally work as fish-out-of-water tales, from Rincewind on through the Witches (abroad and in Maskerade) and the Watchmen in Jingo.

Vimes is a policeman, a man of the polis, of Ankh-Morpork, and he works brilliantly in his element because the city runs in his veins. He might then be a good fish-out-of-water candidate- except that FOW comedy works when said FOW is the butt of the jokes. You can't do that with Vimes. It also stretches the 'reality' for Sam the ultimate urbanite to outwit werewolves in their own wilderness! It's like Popeye Doyle as Rambo.

And the werewolf subplot struck me as a (weaker) re-run of Carpe Jugulum.

I adore TP and Discworld- but let's be honest: putting books out at the rate he does, he can't always bring his A game. I had great hopes for Making Money as a sequel to the fabulous Going Postal, but it really doesn't measure up.

Post by **Frelga** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:45 am

Soli, I would agree with you about Making Money, but disagree about Fifth Elephant. The werewolf chase scenes, IMO, are some of the strongest in the Watch books. Except possibly the Cherry Orchard detour, that was just plain weird.

I also don't see 5E as a fish-out-of-water comedy. Vimes is a fish that travels with his own water. It is because he is so grounded in his policeman's outlook that he ultimately triumphs, no matter where he goes. As in Jingo, when D'regs try to feed him sheep eyeballs.

It also stretches the 'reality' for Sam the ultimate urbanite to outwit werewolves in their own wilderness!

That would be a valid point. However,

Hidden text.

Yep, recently re-read 5E. Saw a hardcover at the second hand bookstore, grabbed it eagerly, and only realized at home that it was a large print edition.

And this week, I re-read Wintersmith. As has happened with me and PTerry's books before, I loved it much more on the second go. But something gave me a solid punch that I missed the first time around. The boggles. The orange squiggle monsters of the Underworld that devour memories and leave their victims wandering around, staring at their hand, dragging useless boxes. When you take away memory, you take away the person.

He made Alzheimer's into a monster. It almost made me cry.