Terry Pratchett diagnosed with Alzheimers

[Frelga]

I know someone who can lend you one. Wyrd Sisters is a blast. I think that's the one that starts with the line about lightning stabbing the earth like an inefficient assassin.

Mahima, thanks. I thought Peach Pie sounded more right, but Peace Pie does have a Discworld ring to it.

[Inanna]

Mahima, thanks. I thought Peach Pie sounded more right, but Peace Pie does have a Discworld ring to it.

It does, doesn't it? In fact, I immediately wondered if Peach Pie got renamed to Peace Pie during the "Republic of Treacle Mine Road" time, but couldn't recall.

[Frelga]

Today I came across a quote from Night Watch which reminded me of when I knew I was in love with Discworld. Describing an assassin:

His movements could be called cat-like, except that he did not stop to spray urine up against things.

[Inanna]

Am very happy I got my sis onto Pratchett... we're currently exchanging quotes.

[Frelga]

Today is The Glorious 25th of May, which in Ankh-Morpork marks the anniversary of what is remembered as a glorious revolution by everyone except those who were there. Today it is also the Memorial Day in the United States. Sir Terrence said it best for both:

"They did the job they didn't have to do, and they died doing it, and you can't give them anything. Do you understand? They fought for those who'd been abandoned, they fought for one another, and they were betrayed. Men like them always are. What good would a statue be? It'd just inspire new fools to believe they're going to be heroes. They wouldn't want that. Just let them be. Forever."

[solicitr]

Frelga:

Are you seriously implying that those who died in the effort to destroy the Third Reich, or preserve the Union and end slavery, were merely fools and betrayed?

Sometimes somebody *does* have to do the job.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree, soli.

[Primula Baggins]

I seriously don't think Frelga (or Pratchett) was implying any such thing.

[solicitr]

“We all share the love of peace, but our sons and daughters must learn two lessons men everywhere and in every time have had to learn: that the price of freedom is dear, but not nearly as costly as the loss of freedom - and that the advance and continuation of civilization depend on those values for which men have always been willing to die for…”

_______________________

Sir Terrence said it best for both:

"They did the job they didn't have to do

Am I really misreading that?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

soli, I believe that I read it the same way you did, but let's wait and see whether Frelga is willing to clarify.

In any event, I hope that we can all agree that the sacrifice of all of those who have given their lives for their country should be remembered with honor, regardless of what we think of the individual wars that they fought.

[Frelga]

V, have you read Night Watch, from where the quote came? If not, I highly recommend it.

As for soli, I am pretty sure you read the NW, remember the context of Sam Vimes's words and don't have much of an excuse for twisting it this way.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Frelga, I've not read Nightwatch. Perhaps you could explain to me what you meant, not in regards to "Ankh-Morpork" but in the context of Memorial Day? Then there won't be any continued confusion.

[Frelga]

Sir Terrence said it best for both:

"They did the job they didn't have to do

Am I really misreading that?

Apparently.

Voronwë, can you explain "Po-ta-toes!" not in regards to "Middle-earth"? There's a reason I put the quote in the Pratchett thread. The reason is, I hoped that folks who did read the book (minus soli, apparently) would recall the context of it. They would remember that the words were spoken by Commander Vimes, mourning the loss of his friends in the events of the Glorious 25th of May, to Lord Vetinari, who in fact "was there", and who just offered to construct a memorial to them. And they would know what the job was that the men did, and what their memorial ultimately was. Without that background, it's kind of hard to explain.

However, let me translate this into Tolkien.

"But I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."

[solicitr]

Frelga, I certainly understand the appropriateness of Vimes' words to the dead of the Ankh-Morpork revolt. Where I'm nonplussed is your (apparent) extension of them to US war dead in the real world, which to me seemed very inapplicable and inappropriate.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks for trying to explain, Frelga. I'm afraid that to me, that quote from Pratchett doesn't say remotely the same thing as the quote from Tolkien, and it's hard for me to apply it to America's Memorial Day without the implication that all American soldiers died in vain, but I certainly accept your representation that that is not what you meant. Maybe some day if I read the book, I would understand better.

[Rowanberry]

I believe I understand very well what Frelga meant by posting just this quote, and also how it relates to Faramir's words in the LOTR:

War should never be glorified. It's blood and guts and pain and death, not some exciting adventure, like many who haven't been there will always imagine.

And, as for "doing a job they didn't have to do" - well, nobody forced Frodo to take the Ring to Mt. Doom, but he did it, and not without cost. Nobody forced the Americans to participate in the battles in Europe (after all, Japan was the only one who directly attacked them), but they did it, and not without cost.

Hope you get it now.

[Teremia]

Frelga, as a recent Pratchett convert, and one converted partly through Night Watch, I appreciated that quote.

I just read "The Wee Free Men" and "Hat Full of Sky" and enjoyed them both -- plus at least one kid of mine borrowed Hat Full of Sky and liked it as much as I did.

I can't believe it took me all this time to discover Pratchett, but his books are brightening my days, and I'm grateful to him for writing so many of them and to you for pointing me in that direction.

(for Mr. Pratchett)
(for Frelga, our foremost halofirian Pratchettist)

[solicitr]

I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of fighting — its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers ... it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated ... that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.
I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here.
Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!

Absolutely true.

But that does NOT in any way contradict

It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain

[Frelga]

Soli, neither of which contradicts Pratchett.

Rowan, EXACTLY! Thank you.

To misinterpret the quote as soli did one must assume that the men Vimes is mourning were fools that died in vain. The opposite is true. They were indeed heroes who "did the job that was in front of them." They didn't have to do it, and as Rowan points out, it's not the same as "should not have done it."

What Vimes and Faramir (and Sherman) object to is that war has intrinsic value and glory by itself. And more explicitly in Vimes' case, that the memory of the fallen should inspire others to seek such "glory" rather than to fight "for those who'd been abandoned", "for that which they defend."

Does not the Memorial Day honor those who have died fighting for "for those who'd been abandoned"? The slaves of the South*, the prisoners of Auschwitz. They didn't have to do the job. Their families were not dying, their homes were not being bombed. And do we not also remember those who died in other wars, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq? Whatever the reason they were sent there, did they not "fight for one another", just to keep their mates alive?

Vimes wants his friends to be remembered for what they have really done and been, not for some shined-up dulce et decorum lie.

And they do get their memorial, in the end.

V, again, I recommend Night Watch very highly. It is one of those rare books that is poignant and hilarious and wise and silly and engrossing at once. It's probably not the best entry point into Discworld, though. Perhaps read Men-at-Arms, Jingo, or (if not and) Feet of Clay first.

Here's one more, for the road:

'That's a nice song,' said young Sam, and Vimes remembered that he was hearing it for the first time.
'It's an old soldiers' song,' he said.
'Really, sarge? But it's about angels.'
Yes, thought Vimes, and it's amazing what bits those angels cause to rise up as the song progresses. It's a real soldiers' song: sentimental, with dirty bits.
'As I recall, they used to sing it after battles,' he said. I've seen old men cry when they sing it,' he added.
'Why? It sounds cheerful.'
They were remembering who they were not singing it with, thought Vimes. You'll learn. I know you will.

* Well, the Union soldiers, anyway. In part.

[River]

It's a common misconception, I think, to confuse "not compulsory" with "forbidden".