Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt

[Frelga]

Ooo, was thatForverer Knight? I liked that one!

Sorry about the sidetrack, Whistler.

[vison]

Interesting remarks, Vision. I think skepticism is warranted in this case, both from artistic and religious perspectives. Offense is another matter, and I would like to understand your reasons for that. Tell me if you figure that out.

This may seem far-fetched, but I have a suspicion that my unease comes in part from the memory of a book I read so long ago I've forgot the title and author. The book was set in a convent during the mid-19th century as I recall and revolved around the "adventures" (for lack of a better word) of a novice named.....Anne!!! I think. At any rate, she was an enthusiastic young person and was, to use the words with no bark on them, absolutely madly in love with Jesus Christ. She was fervent and devout, of course, and quite sincere. But her feelings about Jesus verged on the....on the what? She got into plenty of trouble, anyway, since she couldn't seem to find the happy medium between devotion and amour. She took her vocation as a Bride of Christ a little too literally. It was an odd book. I used to read a lot of weird books and this was one of them. I wish I could remember more about it. It was meant to be a serious book. Was it translated from French?

I daresay my thoughts, I won't call them suspicions, about Ms. Rice and her projected books are mistaken. But her peculiar sensuality, or rather the peculiar sensuality that I recall from my brief foray into her version of New Orleans, was quite repugnant to me. Maybe she can write otherwise, I hope so. It would be very, very interesting if an author such as she, who has written so much of what I regard as complete trash, could rise above it all and write a "real book". Especially on such a subject! It could be wonderful, if done well.

I guess I appear to be a complete book snob. Well, I am.


(Doesn't mean I never read trash, because I do now and again. Only, I know it when I see it and I don't pretend it's anything else.)

Speaking about the life of Jesus. I once read an amazing time travel story in which the protagonist "went" to the holy land of Jesus' time. He arrived a year or so before the crucifixion and so he took the opportunity to meet Jesus and was horrified to find that the "real" Jesus was a mentally retarded man, living with his mother and father, Mary and Joseph. After some agonized soul-searching, our time-traveller began enacting all the events known of Jesus' last days, right up to the trial and execution of Jesus, which he endured just as it is told in the Bible. I am telling it badly, I know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful story that I've never forgotten. The time traveller was a Jew.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Its comments like that that make me not want to participate in these discussions.

[vison]

Its comments like that that make me not want to participate in these discussions.

Well, I'm sorry you were bothered by it, since I certainly meant no offense.

It was a very interesting story, but it was, after all, only a story.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

You mistake me, vison. I am not referring to the story. I was referring to your reference to Ann Rice's work as "complete trash".

[Whistler]

Rice’s work is far from trash, however much I may object to the attitudes expressed in some of her earlier books. She is always thought provoking, at least.

As to this book…all I can say is that if I weren't aware of this book's author, nothing I've read would have indicated to me that it was Rice. It's a very "healthy" kind of book, if you get my meaning. Nothing lurid lurking behind the scenes, no subdued sensuality. No perversity. Simple goodness as opposed to religiosity. Genuinely nice, everyday characters who are doing the best they can.

One of them just happens to be God. And for a child of seven, that's a bit of a load to carry.

[vison]

You mistake me, vison. I am not referring to the story. I was referring to your reference to Ann Rice's work as "complete trash".

Oh. Sorry.

Well, I am not an Anne Rice fan, and maybe you are? No doubt there are many authors I adore that you don't. But you are probably too polite to ever say that my favourite author writes complete trash? Yes, because you are a gentleman, and I'm not.

Dear Voronwë, my son has every Anne Rice book ever written, including her naughtiest ones, and he loves every word and beats me about the head and ears constantly because I don't like her. Constantly. Look.....I'm covered with bruises!

I love Edgar Rice Burroughs, and I would have to say that his books are pretty much in the same category. However, I read them when I was young and impressionable and remain a loyal fan.

[Whistler]

I object to the whole notion of classifying art into “high” and “low” categories.

There’s only art that works, and art that doesn’t.

All commentary beyond that exists solely for the purpose of giving college professors something to do.

[vison]

I object to the whole notion of classifying art into “high” and “low” categories.

There’s only art that works, and art that doesn’t.

All commentary beyond that exists solely for the purpose of giving college professors something to do.

You're right, of course.

College professors need something to profess, don't they? What would they do, otherwise?

Yet......there are works so sublime that they DO weigh heavier in the Grand Scale of Things.

[Jnyusa]

Frelga, yes, that's the one. Too bad they don't have the actors' names in your link or on imdb. Would be fun to see what other series they did.

I apologize as well if this is off-topic. I didn't think it was off-topic when I started talking about this series because I think it is probably the only vampire show that I've noticed to have addressed directly this theme of immortality. I did see the movie "Interview with a Vampire" and found it too sensationalistic, and though there were references to the curse of immortality, the rather obvious solution for perfect repentence was pointedly avoided. I could not, as a result, sympathize at all with the plight of the 'heroes.' It might be, though, that the books handled this subject more deftly.

But personally, I doubt that mortality/immortality is the origin of the vampire legends. Seriously, I believe that this symbolism is about peasant/landlord relations, going back to the middle ages. Bram Stoker drew upon Vlad the Impaler for his 'hero' - that's my understanding - but in the legend as it seems to spring anew from many sources it is not the peasant who dies on a pointy stick. It is the peasant who wields the pointy stick. And that is very thorough medieval symbolism.

There is a professor here in Philadelphia whose name is very similar to mine, but who teaches literature at a better University. She wrote a scholarly book about the history of the vampire legend some five or six years ago - iirc from a psychological point of view - and a few of my children's friends' parents thought at first that the book belonged to me! I used to joke that because my own research was about banking systems in Central America, I was writing about vampires, too.

Jn

[Whistler]

As usual with Jn, everything comes down to economics!

[Jnyusa]

Wherever we go, there we are.

Jn

[Meneltarma]

Speaking about the life of Jesus. I once read an amazing time travel story in which the protagonist "went" to the holy land of Jesus' time. He arrived a year or so before the crucifixion and so he took the opportunity to meet Jesus and was horrified to find that the "real" Jesus was a mentally retarded man, living with his mother and father, Mary and Joseph. After some agonized soul-searching, our time-traveller began enacting all the events known of Jesus' last days, right up to the trial and execution of Jesus, which he endured just as it is told in the Bible. I am telling it badly, I know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful story that I've never forgotten. The time traveller was a Jew.

Behold The Man by Michael Moorcock. I liked it too.

[truehobbit]

Hmmh - re, trash - I agree that it hurts to read something one likes very much thoroughly condemned. But that can't mean we shouldn't give our real opinion, can it? I mean, one should try to be diplomatic, but I'm also not a proponent of the idea that "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing" - it doesn't make for good discussion, I think.
And vison did say "what I regard as" trash, thus stressing that it's only her personal opinion!

Vison, I also thought that there's something repugnant about the sensuality in her books, though I can't put my finger on it. It's not that I resent all sensuality or so, it depends on how it makes you feel.

I don't know how the book about this novice treated the sensuality, but unless it's similarly sultry as Rice, I could imagine I'd like it better than this other book you described, which reminds me of a Mel Brooks movie or Life of Brian or so, and which I'd probably find blasphemous. The reason I think such a book might be interesting is that I think there is an element of eroticism in passionate devotion.

As to the vampires: I'd never heard the theory about the peasants and the landlord - very interesting, Jny!
I think the idea about vampires stems from people becoming weak with illnesses they had no explanation for - so it must be someone secretly draining their strength. I've also read that people observed changes in rotting bodies that made them look as if they had moved, and there'd be fluids coming from the mouth etc.
Incidentally, according to my dictionary of mythology, sucking people's blood and life-force at night was also something that in some popular beliefs was attributed to Elves.

[JewelSong]

Speaking about the life of Jesus. I once read an amazing time travel story in which the protagonist "went" to the holy land of Jesus' time. He arrived a year or so before the crucifixion and so he took the opportunity to meet Jesus and was horrified to find that the "real" Jesus was a mentally retarded man, living with his mother and father, Mary and Joseph. After some agonized soul-searching, our time-traveller began enacting all the events known of Jesus' last days, right up to the trial and execution of Jesus, which he endured just as it is told in the Bible. I am telling it badly, I know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful story that I've never forgotten. The time traveller was a Jew.

I remember that story! I seem to remember it as a short novel...maybe in one of the Science Fiction/Fantasy magazines? Wow...I wish I could remember the name of it, too...it was pretty cool.

Now I'll be wracking my brains for name/author.

[yovargas]

(slight osgiliation)

Although I haven't opened them for years and stopped reading the endless sequels after the first two Mayfair Witches...

The Mayfair Witches was a straight trilogy, no interminable sequels like so many fantasy writers love to do. That trilogy was quite possibly the most fun I've ever had reading. Despite loving that trilogy, for some reason I never got around to reading anything else from her, though I always meant to. (Well, there was one book called 'Violin' that was too boring to get past the third chapter...)

(/slight osgiliation)

I'd be very curious to read this new work from her. In general I find this sort of dramatic exploration of the Christian myth (I'm an atheist, so to me it's a myth; hope that doesn't offend) pretty interesting. The struggle between Jesus and Satan makes for fascinating drama.

[JewelSong]

In general I find this sort of dramatic exploration of the Christian myth (I'm an atheist, so to me it's a myth; hope that doesn't offend) pretty interesting. The struggle between Jesus and Satan makes for fascinating drama.

Well, I'm NOT an atheist and I still find it fascinating. And there have been many myths that have grown up around Jesus' life and ministry so that word certainly fits.

I don't know if I'll be reading the Anne Rice book, though. It has received pretty poor reviews and the stuff of hers that I have read I found...well, not to my taste at all. I did not think she was a very good writer.

PS: Hobby, I think "Life of Brian" is hysterically funny.

[Whistler]

Most of the reviews I've read have been quite positive.

[Whistler]

Well, I am done with it. I could have finished it in a fraction of the time, but I made a point of reading as slowly as possible, often re-reading certain chapters before proceeding into new ones.

What struck me most is the plainness, the ordinariness of it. I mean this as a compliment: Any attempt to “jazz up” an (albeit fictionalized) life of Christ would be presumptuous and vulgar. Rice has sense enough (and taste enough) to show remarkable restraint. The storyline is interesting enough, but there is nothing so clever, so inventive, that it smacks of contrivance. The secondary characters ring true, which means that they aren’t always ready with a snappy line of dialogue that sounds more written than real.

These are plain people, doing the best they can in a world filled with violence and political upheaval. They work, they eat together, they study the scriptures. They visit the temple, they visit their relatives. All of this will fascinate those who are interested in the minutiae of daily life in this culture, as I am. The rest, perhaps, will be less entertained.

The whole thing sinks or swims, of course, on Rice’s depiction of Jesus himself. I think she has pulled off quite a trick in depicting a character who is both fully human and fully divine, and by allowing him to speak in his own words. I won’t give away any surprises by saying how she manages this, but I believed in both aspects of this little seven-year-old carpenter’s assistant who gradually comes to understand that life, death and nature are his to command.

Will you like it? I will quote Abraham Lincoln: “Those of you who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.”

I liked it very much, and I will be reading all additional volumes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks, Whistler. I got a similar review from another friend of mine, who was a fan of Rice's Witch books, but not her Vampire books. I look forward very much to reading it.