Never fear.Primula Baggins wrote:
Far too much liberality of information, vison.
Please do share any further insights you may have at other points in the story. . . .
Reading Trollope: 'The Warden' chapters 19-21
So, how are we doing?
I was in Value Village last night and got lost in the bookcases. Bought a cartload of used books: a really OLD Bartlett's, a nice old hardcover Roget's, a buncha others, and a nice hardcover edition combining The Warden with Barchester Towers.
I spent $23.
This is the way to go.
I was in Value Village last night and got lost in the bookcases. Bought a cartload of used books: a really OLD Bartlett's, a nice old hardcover Roget's, a buncha others, and a nice hardcover edition combining The Warden with Barchester Towers.
I spent $23.
This is the way to go.
Dig deeper.
That sounds like a lovely haul, vison! I'd just come in to post initial reactions to the current section.
So we meet the bedesmen. Am I wrong in observing that the author is not neutral in the matter of their complaint? I have to admit, I tend to agree with his viewpoint (later articulated rather unsubtly by Dr. Grantly), rather than with the bedesmen's and Mr. Bold's.
Abel Handy is the ringleader of the ungrateful louts, of whom five are steadfastly convinced along with him (Moody, Spriggs ...) and three are namby pamby (Skulpit, Gazy, Crumple). Mr. Bunce is the leader of the resistance, a total of three.
I loved the opening paragraph of Chapter V, where we meet Dr. Grantly in person; I thought it was full of little gems of description. I wasn't as dismayed as Mr. Harding seemed to be at the archdeacon's speech to the bedesmen! What does this say about me, I wonder?
Of course we were warned that Mr. Harding would be bullied by the archdeacon. His feelings are so delicate, and their motivations varied:
- he doesn't like strife
- he doesn't like to disagree with his superiors
- most of all it seemed to me, he does not want to be thought ill of (as would be the result of a public outcry about the Hiram inheritance)
As to Eleanor -- I like her very much, and Mary Bold as well (I can see why sister loves brother, but I'm becoming less understanding of how Bold should have earned Eleanor's affections, unless that self-satisfied self-regard is newly emerging with this lofty cause). Oh, and Mary is 30, but the author called her a young woman. Good for him!
What an odd description that was of the dance and the card playing!
I thought the scene between father and daughter, when Eleanor expresses her concern for him and he turns it back to her, was lovely. And I thought, 'Rah, Eleanor!' at the very end of the section. (After all, I guess we can't have everyone being as nice as Mr. Harding.)
I wondered about this (loved the faltering attempts of Bold! -- just like a verbal representation of a Hugh Grant performance):
Any insights on what 'the consolation of a Roman' means?
So we meet the bedesmen. Am I wrong in observing that the author is not neutral in the matter of their complaint? I have to admit, I tend to agree with his viewpoint (later articulated rather unsubtly by Dr. Grantly), rather than with the bedesmen's and Mr. Bold's.
Abel Handy is the ringleader of the ungrateful louts, of whom five are steadfastly convinced along with him (Moody, Spriggs ...) and three are namby pamby (Skulpit, Gazy, Crumple). Mr. Bunce is the leader of the resistance, a total of three.
I loved the opening paragraph of Chapter V, where we meet Dr. Grantly in person; I thought it was full of little gems of description. I wasn't as dismayed as Mr. Harding seemed to be at the archdeacon's speech to the bedesmen! What does this say about me, I wonder?
Of course we were warned that Mr. Harding would be bullied by the archdeacon. His feelings are so delicate, and their motivations varied:
- he doesn't like strife
- he doesn't like to disagree with his superiors
- most of all it seemed to me, he does not want to be thought ill of (as would be the result of a public outcry about the Hiram inheritance)
As to Eleanor -- I like her very much, and Mary Bold as well (I can see why sister loves brother, but I'm becoming less understanding of how Bold should have earned Eleanor's affections, unless that self-satisfied self-regard is newly emerging with this lofty cause). Oh, and Mary is 30, but the author called her a young woman. Good for him!
What an odd description that was of the dance and the card playing!
I thought the scene between father and daughter, when Eleanor expresses her concern for him and he turns it back to her, was lovely. And I thought, 'Rah, Eleanor!' at the very end of the section. (After all, I guess we can't have everyone being as nice as Mr. Harding.)
I wondered about this (loved the faltering attempts of Bold! -- just like a verbal representation of a Hugh Grant performance):
'Eleanor, that is, Miss Harding, if she thinks fit -- that is, if her father -- or rather, if she -- or, indeed, he -- if they find it necessary -- but there is no necessity now to talk about Eleanor Harding; but this I will say, that if she has the kind of spirit for which I give her credit, she will not condemn me for doing what I think to be a duty.' And Bold consoled himself with the consolation of a Roman.
Any insights on what 'the consolation of a Roman' means?
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
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Impenitent
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The consolation of a Roman: The ideal Roman citizen was one who was supposed to place the success of the state and fulfillment of duty above his own personal desires.
from: http://www.trollope-apollo.com/Warden/Warden4to6.htm
a website which describes itself as "A Guide to Classics in the Barsetshire Novels of Anthony Trollope"
from: http://www.trollope-apollo.com/Warden/Warden4to6.htm
a website which describes itself as "A Guide to Classics in the Barsetshire Novels of Anthony Trollope"
John Bold is the archetypal Trollopean young man. He is bold, like his name, manly, full of himself but not a bad man, certain of his abilities and worth, and by no means afraid to pick the nicest apple on the tree.
Elanor is a more or less typical Trollopean "heroine", although a bit more natural than most of them. In Trollope's novels the "mandatory" heroine, the one required by readers of novels (who were thought to be mostly refined young ladies), must be pure and beautiful and be good at the "patient Grizelda" bit.
The ideal maiden would never, even to herself, admit that she "loved" a man. She had to be "awakened" by being asked. Which is nonsense now and it was nonsense then, but it was the convention.
For me, as for many readers, the meat of the novels is the other characters. Dr. Grantly, for instance, is one of my beloveds. In The Warden Trollope is a bit hard on him, he has not quite developed the character fully yet, Dr. Grantly mellows as the Barsetshire novels progress or, rather, it isn't so much that he mellows as we get to know him better. A worthy man, in all, but fond of having his own way and certain that he is always right. He gets a lesson or two later on, but not in this book.
Mr. Harding is just a sweet man. As I said before, his virtues become much like faults, but his sweetness never fades. Bunce is a wonderful character, all the bedesmen are wonderful characters as far as we know them.
I am so much enjoying this, knowing that people are entering Barsetshire for the first time. I could wander around in there forever.
eta: that website is wonderful!
I want to add that in writing The Warden Trollope was still a "young" novelist, although he was no longer a young man. He overdoes the "comic" bit here and there, and the fantastical classical allusions, and later on he goes off the rails on an anti-Dickens, anti-Carlyle rant, but the faults of the book are much, much outweighed by the perfections!!!! He seldom falls into those flaws again, becoming more and more confident of his powers. Not that all his books are "great", but an awful lot of them are.
Elanor is a more or less typical Trollopean "heroine", although a bit more natural than most of them. In Trollope's novels the "mandatory" heroine, the one required by readers of novels (who were thought to be mostly refined young ladies), must be pure and beautiful and be good at the "patient Grizelda" bit.
The ideal maiden would never, even to herself, admit that she "loved" a man. She had to be "awakened" by being asked. Which is nonsense now and it was nonsense then, but it was the convention.
For me, as for many readers, the meat of the novels is the other characters. Dr. Grantly, for instance, is one of my beloveds. In The Warden Trollope is a bit hard on him, he has not quite developed the character fully yet, Dr. Grantly mellows as the Barsetshire novels progress or, rather, it isn't so much that he mellows as we get to know him better. A worthy man, in all, but fond of having his own way and certain that he is always right. He gets a lesson or two later on, but not in this book.
Mr. Harding is just a sweet man. As I said before, his virtues become much like faults, but his sweetness never fades. Bunce is a wonderful character, all the bedesmen are wonderful characters as far as we know them.
I am so much enjoying this, knowing that people are entering Barsetshire for the first time. I could wander around in there forever.
eta: that website is wonderful!
I want to add that in writing The Warden Trollope was still a "young" novelist, although he was no longer a young man. He overdoes the "comic" bit here and there, and the fantastical classical allusions, and later on he goes off the rails on an anti-Dickens, anti-Carlyle rant, but the faults of the book are much, much outweighed by the perfections!!!! He seldom falls into those flaws again, becoming more and more confident of his powers. Not that all his books are "great", but an awful lot of them are.
Dig deeper.
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Primula Baggins
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Argh, I missed this discussion—was away from the board. But I'm behind anyway. I'll catch up and chime in when I can.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Primula Baggins
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<echo>
<echo>
<echo>
I'm still here. I'll try to get these chapters read in the next couple of days and come on and post the most hare-brained interpretations I can think of. That ought to get things rolling again.
<echo>
<echo>
I'm still here. I'll try to get these chapters read in the next couple of days and come on and post the most hare-brained interpretations I can think of. That ought to get things rolling again.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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I would be willing to take a break. I don't think I will be doing much reading for fun until nearly Christmas, alas.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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themary
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I know we are taking a break but I've finally caught up! You're right vison after the first couple of chapters the book is easier to follow.
So we've seen what most of the bedesmen are after and I find it appalling that they are using threats to get all the men on the same page. Those men have been taken care of all of these years without the 100 pounds a year up front.
Mr. Harding is truly a sweet man who wants to do good and stay on everyone's good side. I feel for him trying to please everyone but kudos to him for questioning how much grief he should take from the Jupiter article. Harding's name was slandered pretty well in the article who wouldn't be hurt?
I enjoyed Mrs. Grantly telling her husband like it is behind the scenes. The archdeacon is as manipulative and disingenuous as I suspected him to be. His father the bishop seems decent but weak willed. And poor Mr. Harding stuck in the middle trying to please everyone while his own good name takes a beating.
So we've seen what most of the bedesmen are after and I find it appalling that they are using threats to get all the men on the same page. Those men have been taken care of all of these years without the 100 pounds a year up front.
Mr. Harding is truly a sweet man who wants to do good and stay on everyone's good side. I feel for him trying to please everyone but kudos to him for questioning how much grief he should take from the Jupiter article. Harding's name was slandered pretty well in the article who wouldn't be hurt?
I enjoyed Mrs. Grantly telling her husband like it is behind the scenes. The archdeacon is as manipulative and disingenuous as I suspected him to be. His father the bishop seems decent but weak willed. And poor Mr. Harding stuck in the middle trying to please everyone while his own good name takes a beating.
...the embers never fade in your city by the lake
The place where you were born
The place where you were born
I feel Barchester calling again. I was thinking, since we didn't do so well without structure, that perhaps we could impose a schedule on ourselves. How about a two-week cycle, one week to read and the second to discuss? So continue discussing chapters 7- 9 next Monday?
What do you all think?
What do you all think?
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
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Primula Baggins
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That would certainly help me. Anything without a deadline attached usually gets bulldozed into "toward the end of next week, maybe."
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King