Reading Trollope: 'The Warden' chapters 19-21

[Cerin]

The archdeacon is as manipulative and disingenuous as I suspected him to be.

You seem to have a worse impression of the archdeacon than I do, themary. I wonder if you could be specific about where you saw him as disingenuous. I don't think of him as manipulative, in the sense that, though he certainly wants people to do what he wants them to do, he is quite forthright about bullying them into line (whereas I think of 'manipulative' as indicating a certain sneakiness as far as keeping the true goal hidden while you maneuver people there without their knowledge).


So it seems that Eleanor Harding's outward mettle was not a true reflection of her inner feelings. We're told that she isn't quite as sure she was in the right as she pretended to be, i.e., that perhaps she isn't quite justified in rejecting Mr. Bold (and his lawsuit) in the way she did. I think she is certainly justified in reacting emotionally as she did, regardless of whether or not Mr. Bold is in any way to be faulted for pursuing the lawsuit.

It didn't improve my opinion of Mr. Bold to be told that he felt elation upon seeing the newspaper article, in spite of the awareness he must have had, of how hurtful it must be to Mr. Harding.

I was somewhat annoyed at the portrait of the Grantly children, with each of the boys meriting paragraphs of praise and the two girls dismissed as uninteresting. But perhaps all but the most extraordinary girls were stifled into dullness in those days?

I was also surprised at the portrait of Dr. Grantly reading his morning away while taking pains to make it appear that he was working! I wouldn't have expected such furtive behavior from him -- but then, he's so very conscious of his image (to use modern parlance). We're so lucky to have Mrs. Grantly -- she really humanizes the archdeacon.

Regarding the will and Sir Abraham's opinion, there is no interest in engaging the opposition on the meat of the matter (the intent of the will), but rather, they hope to defeat them by technicalities, there being sufficient of these to exhaust the other side's resources before they should ever get close to making a sound case? Hardly a satisfying approach for poor Mr. Harding, who really wants to know if he has been doing wrong all these years.

[vison]

In later years, Trollope had to readjust his creations of the characters of the Grantly children, or at least their adult characters were very different than their childhood ones. I believe he killed one or two of them off, too. Easy to do in Victorian days.

He was bad at children, anyway. I can't think of a satsifactory one, and I know them all. He had such a wretched childhood himself that he probably had no idea how to make a "normal" childhood.

Archbishop Grantly is not a bad man, but he is worldly and ambitious. This is not necessarily a bad thing. And Trollope (and his characters) hated religiosity. One of the best things in English literature is the scene between Lady Eustace and Lady Fawn, where the wicked, conniving Lady Eustace tries to convince the genuinely good Lady Fawn that she is a sincerely religious woman whose best comfort is her Bible. Wonderful stuff.

[Cerin]

I've changed the thread title to the next three chapters.

I wonder what Mr. Harding is going to do!

[Cerin]

So we don't find out what Mr. Harding will do after all. It looks as though that will start the next section.

I was glad Mr. Harding confided in Eleanor. He really needed some relief! It seems he is accepting the archdeacon's admonishments about his duty to the church, since he rejects Eleanor's suggestion that they simply go away together. Yet he says he doesn't believe in the truth of what the archdeacon says, but still feels bound by it. Then again, it says he does feel that it would be unmanly to desert his post. I guess this confusing array of emotions represents the tumult in his mind. It is a very ethically complicated situation for someone of such sensitive conscience.

I didn't quite understand the reference to self-sacrifice in the next chapter. I am familiar with the story of Jephtha's daughter (terrible story!), but not with the other reference. I can see that Eleanor's entreaty mustn't be seen to be an offer of love in exchange for Mr. Bold's dropping the case, but I don't see how that connects to the idea of self-sacrifice on Eleanor's part. I wasn't suspicious of Eleanor's motives as the author suggested some readers might be (though I am not yet a member of that older group he referred to so poetically).

As to the emotional descriptons in the chapter, they made me wonder about the author's personal life, his experience with women, etc. I felt there was a certain detachment in the descriptions, but perhaps that is due simply to the narrative voice the author uses, which the reader is sometimes deliberately made more aware of by allusions to situations outside the immediate story.

I was rather thrilled to see what I took to be a Pride and Prejudice reference at the beginning of the next chapter! I didn't know what to make of Absolute and Beverley, though, so perhaps we could talk about that.

So, the disastrous visit to Plumstead! Dr. Grantly was just as fierce with the more vigorous Mr. Bold as he'd been in previous scenes; this recommends him more than if he were forceful only with the meek and mild. It struck me that Dr. Grantly is not terribly advanced in certain aspects of Christian character (such as kindness, gentleness, self control), but then again, these can be expressions of personality as well as character. It may be that a mature Dr. Grantly would always seem less Christ-like than an equally mature Mr. Harding because of the differences in their personalities. Certainly the archdeacon has plenty of reason to be dismissive of and incensed with Mr. Bold. I must say, I didn't object to the idea of Mr. Bold having to pay the legal fees for the hospital defense; having to take personal responsibility for his actions might be a good cure for that excessively enthusiastic idealism.

My, those Grantly boys were cheeky!

[Cerin]

S

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Well, what a sad and unadornedly realistic outcome. I suppose I was expecting a bit of contrivance to make things turn out well. I must say, it is supremely ironic that the lawsuit that ruined everything was based on the disputed notion that the will wasn't being carried out, and resulted in the will most definitely not being carried out.

I see the next book is about a Doctor. I'm sorry the discussion petered out, but it got me going with Trollope, so in that respect I'm very glad we made the attempt!

[Primula Baggins]

I'm sorry I fell out of it.

I'm trying to organize my life so I've got time set apart for this kind of reading. But it's hard (and I just agreed to write another novel by October 1 ).

[Cerin]

Prim! I can't even imagine what that feels like! How many is this now? Will it be another in the same series?

[Primula Baggins]

It'll be the third in the same series. Writing to deadline is intense, but fun.

[vison]

The next book is Barchester Towers, not Dr. Thorne. Barchester Towers is fabulous. They are all fabulous. While I love The Warden, it is not, IMHO, the equal of the next 5. It is really just an introduction, much lighter in length and content.

The novels, in order: The Warden, Barchester Towers, Dr. Thorne, Framley Parsonage, The Small House at Allington, The Last Chronicle of Barset.

Barchester Towers "carries on" directly from The Warden, most of the people we first met in The Warden are in it. You will get to love Dr. Grantly better in it, I promise.

I don't know which one is my favourite, although The Small House at Allington keeps popping up in that category. Oh, Cerin, you haven't met Lily Dale yet, or Johnny Eames, or Adolphus Crosby, or Hopkins the gardener or anyone, and they are all so WONDERFUL. Such dear old beloved friends of mine.

You know how we keep saying that when we read LOTR we "go" to Middle Earth? Well, when I read these wonderful novels, I am happy to be in Barsetshire for years on end. It is as real as The Shire, to me.

eta: this is my second edit. I had a long, fabulously profound and revealing edit added to the above and my *&%$#^*( computer crashed.

*sobs*

Why? Why? Why? Why?

Anyway.

Yeah.

[Cerin]

Drat, sorry you lost that edit, vison. Thanks so much for straightening me out on the order of the books; I must have gotten the books switched around in the case. I might have gone on to Dr. Thorne without even realizing I was out of order!

[vison]

There are bits of Dr. Thorne that are the equal of anything he wrote. Miss Dunstable first shows up in Dr. Thorne. Miss Dunstable is worth knowing.

But the usual simpering heroine is in there, too. In this case, Mary Thorne, the Dr.'s niece. And the Noble but not-yet-finished-growing-up hero, Frank Gresham. However, that's jumping the gun.

Barchester Towers will introduce you to the Divine Mrs. Bishop Proudie. Mrs. Proudie is one of Trollope's BEST characters. She defies description, so I won't even try. You will also meet Mr. Slope. Another great character, but lesser than Mrs. Proudie. And the Signora Vesey Neroni. And Mr. Arabin, and the Rev. Mr. Crawley and a whole wonderful lovable cast of characters who are as known to me as Sam and Frodo and every one of whom I adore.

Trollope created some of the greatest woman characters in literature. His women are better than his men. Oh, not the "heroines". No, not at all. Except for Lily Dale.

I envy you these first meetings with my dear friends. They are lovely to know.

[Cerin]

So I held off on watching the 'Barchester Towers' DVDs for quite awhile, thinking that it would be better to read the books first. But I wasn't getting to the books, so I've started to watch the series.

vison, what do you think about watching the series before I read the books? Will I be spoiling the books for myself?

[vison]

Not at all. The TV series, as far as I saw it, was very faithful to the books. Alan Rickman plays Mr. Slope. Need I say more?

The TV series leaves bits out, but they never put anything "new" in. The casting was pretty wonderful.

[Cerin]

Thanks, vison!