Guns, Germs, and Steel

[baby tuckoo]

Mr. President, I fear an early morning inspiration gap.

[Ellienor]

I think the one critique of the book that I have read is that China doesn't really fit the model. He tries to explain China away as having a single government which squelched innovation (I think--it's been a few years since I read the book). However, he poses some interesting questions and I think "geographical determinism" has had a significant impact on the European domination in the last few centuries.

I also read, Collapse, about a year ago. That book was a black eye for all of the libertarian types out there. He did a study of societies that collapsed (Easter island, Greenland settlements, etc.) comparing with similar societies (i.e., island-based, so limited resources) and found that effective and future-oriented governments which forced conservation was the key difference.

[yovargas]

I think the one critique of the book that I have read is that China doesn't really fit the model. He tries to explain China away as having a single government which squelched innovation (I think--it's been a few years since I read the book).

I took it differently. The point was about who gets the power and China did indeed have more power than Europe. But than it chose to not to use that power. What individual humans decide to do with power isn't ever going to fit into such broad patterns of history.

[vison]

I think the one critique of the book that I have read is that China doesn't really fit the model. He tries to explain China away as having a single government which squelched innovation (I think--it's been a few years since I read the book).

I took it differently. The point was about who gets the power and China did indeed have more power than Europe. But than it chose to not to use that power. What individual humans decide to do with power isn't ever going to fit into such broad patterns of history.

I agree with yovargas.

I often think of the famous Chinese expedition sent out by some Emperor or another: they got as far as the West coast of Africa, as I recall. But upon their return there was a new Emperor who told them all to forget what they'd seen, ordered their logs destroyed, and sank the ships. They have a strong conviction that Chinese culture is superior to all others, and even now when they seem to adopt everything Western, a couple of decades is not long enough to say whether the change will last.

China has always been insular and has been a nation longer than any other on Earth.

eta: chance put easily domesticated plants and animals in what we know as the Fertile Crescent. Of the 12 major domesticated species, I believe 9 of them, both plants and animals, are from that area.

The Americas offered only one large domesticable animal: the Llama. And it was used only as pack animal, it was not used for pulling either wagons or ploughs. While Maize has become of the three most important grains on Earth, it is more due to modern plant genetics than to any innate superiority of the plant itself. It is terribly expensive to grow, the way we modern peoples grow it, requiring enormous amounts of fertilizer. It is very hard on the land, draining it of nutrients despite the fertilizer poured into it.

One thing I don't recall Diamond mentioning is the difference in "culture" required to grow Rice vs Wheat or Maize. Rice requires a village culture, it is an undertaking too great for one man or his family to make the paddies, etc., that are needed for Rice. The Rice growing regions of China are what we think of as "typically Chinese", with the age-old necessity of putting the clan/village before individual needs and desires.

I daresay there are flaws and faults in some of Diamond's ideas, but they fit very closely with observable history and behaviors, AFAIC.