Let's read "Werther"

Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:56 am

Elsha, I could never imagine you sounding unintelligent. And as we often tell our drum students, the only stupid question is one that you don't ask because you are afraid of sounding stupid.

hobby, I am tentatively in, though I don't have the book yet. I'm pretty sure that I won't have any trouble finding a copy (I really prefer not to use e-books, but I suppose that is an option if I can't find it otherwise).

Post by **Crucifer** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:22 pm

Hobby, I will be away for 10 days, and won't be active for another 2 before, as I just got me my music and the first horn has copped out so I have to learn his solo, and the two days after, as I will be wrecked. I'll read it in my own time, and come back and discuss it then. Go ahead.

Post by **truehobbit** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:37 pm

Ah alright, then, Crucifer

- I don't really understand what you're away for, but it sounds like some intense rehearsal? Good luck with that!

Please feel free to join in any time you can!

Voronwë, w00t - I hope you find a copy!

And I've been thinking some more about pronunciation - it's been bothering me that I couldn't come up with a better approximation for the first vowel sound then 'men' (which isn't quite it) - it's now occurred to me that the first "e" in Werther is much the same vowel sound as the "e" in Fëanor.

(Well, at least the way I pronounce it.

)

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:54 pm

It is a little-known fact that in conversation Tolkien invariably used what he called "ze Tcherman" pronunciations of Elvish names.

If I can join in, it will be in progress. Halfway through draft 2, and still hoping there will be a draft 3.

Post by **elfshadow** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:34 pm

Thanks, Hobby!! I imagine that I'd still mangle it if I tried to say it out loud, but at least I know how it's supposed to be pronounced.

And thank you, V, although I'm sure I do sound unintelligent at times! But you're right, it's better to ask than to act like you already know.

Post by **BrianIsSmilingAtYou** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:37 am

elfshadow wrote:I was just curious, Hobby, for the sake of not sounding too unintelligent should I ever need to talk about this novel aloud ...what is the proper pronunciation of "Werther"? I'd assume that it's not pronounced how I would phonetically pronounce it (since it's in a different language from English and all ) but maybe I'm just overthinking things.

We read this in college, and the pronunciation was basically was truehobbit said, but in addition the "w" is pronounced like "v", just as Wagner is pronounced with a "V" sound in the beginning ("Vahgner").

So, I would think that the pronunciation is somewhere between "Verter" and "Verteh" (as Hobby said, the final "r" is not emphasized).

BrianIs

AtYou

Post by **truehobbit** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:29 pm

Oooh, yes, I forgot about English "w".

But I guess you know anyway zat ve vill pronounce "w" zis vay.

Should we get started after the weekend? Or do the people who need to buy copies prefer some more time to find them?

Post by **elfshadow** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:56 pm

I got my copy yesterday, so I'm ready to start anytime!

Post by **truehobbit** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:16 pm

w00t, elsha!

I poked Voronwë in another thread about looking for it when he goes to a bookshop on Monday, so let's see if he finds it there.

Then we should be ready to start.

Post by **truehobbit** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:44 pm

Oops, I meant to post on Monday, but didn't get round to it.

Right, it seems that Voronwë hasn't got his copy yet, and Jny's hasn't been around for ages - anyone know what's up?

Still, I think we should get started.

I'd say we read all the letters of May (i.e. the first 9 letters, that's 15 pages in my copy) and then take a break for a bit of discussion, because there's also a bit of a break in the narrative there.
When you've read that much, we could talk about what sort of person Werther is, how he ticks and what he thinks and maybe also what we think about him and his ideas.
Ok?

Post by **Breogán** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:49 pm

I read "Werther" back in college, but I'll be happy to read it once again

Post by **truehobbit** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:04 pm

Wow, Bre!

I'm really impressed with how many people here have read it before.

But it's also nice to read it again, I think, and it would be great if you could join.

Post by **elfshadow** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:57 pm

Okay, Hobby, sounds good! I'll start reading right away.

Post by **truehobbit** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:40 am

Just post your impressions when you're done, elsha. I hope some more people will be able to join in soon.

As to me, I'll be offline for the whole weekend, starting Friday. Hope to find a nice discussion going by Monday.

Post by **Jnyusa** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:47 am

I'm here!

Will read those first nine letters!

Post by **truehobbit** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:53 pm

Cool - thanks, Jny!

elsha, how're things going for you?

Post by **elfshadow** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:20 am

They're going great, Hobby! I have already finished the first nine letters, sorry that it took me so long!

My mom stole the book from me so I couldn't find it for several days.

Spoilers!

The first thing that struck me about Werther was the incredible writing! Wow! With every word, I melted further into his world. I should have expected being amazed from all I have heard about Goethe, but it is truly a wonderful read. I can only imagine how beautiful it must be to read in German, if the English translation is so absorbing.

The thing that I noticed immediately about Werther, the character, was how passionately he feels about nearly everything he encounters. He is enthralled by Nature, as is apparent from his vivid descriptions of the walks that he goes on and the things that he sees. Yet his passions of the moment seem so intense that they cloud nearly everything else he could (or should) be thinking about. "I am so happy, dear friend, so completely sunk in the sensation of sheer being, that my art suffers," he says on May 10th. His emotions channel deep within him, but they are fleeting. "You cannot imagine anything so erratic, so restless as my heart." (May 13th)

I also wonder about Werther's past, and what has led him to this place. He mentions something about several women, including one called Leonora, and I would like to know more about them. It seems that he has loved and left one woman (it was not clear to me whether or not this was Leonora or a different woman) but said that he was glad to be gone, even though he had loved her. He also alludes in the last letter to the woman he mentioned at the beginning with his notions of love--that it cannot be sensible and must be passionate. Yet if his love for this woman was so passionate, why then is he glad to have left her?

Another thing--I can't decide after reading these first letters whether Werther is really a very lonely person. Although he talks with many of the townspeople and mentions a lot of them individually, he also says that he cannot truly bond with them since they are of a different social status. On May 22, he tells how he is haunted by the thought that human life may be only a dream, and seems almost hopeless for an instant with the thought that humans are perhaps prolonging their lives, appeased only by simple satisfaction, and for no good reason. He then says that he escapes this "prison" by withdrawing within himself. And this is why I can't decide if he's lonely. He speaks of his desire for passionate love and wishes for "congenial company" despite the fact that people seem to swarm around him. Does he really want these things or is he truly just content to live within himself?

And those are all the thoughts I can remember for now.

Sorry again to be so late in posting this!

Post by **Crucifer** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:05 pm

Oh screwbie doo! I had a copy of it in my hand today, thinking, "why does that sound familiar?"

Post by **truehobbit** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:30 am

elsha - you're not late, you're the first to post!

Your mom stole it? How cool is that?

If your mom is reading it, too, it would be great to get her impressions as well.

Spoilers

was how passionately he feels about nearly everything he encounters.

Absolutely - yes, that's a defining mark of his character. Also a definining mark of the time, I'd say. The original meaning of "Sturm and Drang" which Prim said was used so differently in today's English.

Yet his passions of the moment seem so intense that they cloud nearly everything else he could (or should) be thinking about.

In a way, I think that it's in the nature of violent emotions to make it impossible to express or understand them. But I completely agree with you in finding (as it seems you do, from this) that they are just a little too extreme - I, at least, get a bit uncomfortable with his passion.

This is something I'd like to hear people's perceptions about, because, as far as I know, readers differ in how feel about this.

He mentions something about several women, including one called Leonora, and I would like to know more about them. It seems that he has loved and left one woman (it was not clear to me whether or not this was Leonora or a different woman) but said that he was glad to be gone, even though he had loved her.

The way I understand it, Leonora was in love with him while he was dallying with her sister. Apparently, he didn't properly discourage her, and does now admit some blame to himself for letting her believe in the possibility of their love. That first letter contains a lot of convoluted information about his past in a few sentences, I think.
What does become clear, IMO, is that he is not very settled in his emotions or conscious of what he wants.

You mention two crucial aspects, elsha:

his notions of love--that it cannot be sensible and must be passionate.

I hope it's not a spoiler to say this, but I think you've hit upon a key-phrase of the novel. So much so that I'd find it interesting to discuss a bit what each of us personally makes of this basic idea.

What do you think? Do you think love is only true love if it goes beyond reason? Is passion something that will override sense and if it doesn't it's not love?

Although he talks with many of the townspeople and mentions a lot of them individually, he also says that he cannot truly bond with them since they are of a different social status.

There's a class issue here, I think, that makes his relations to people he finds difficult. He enjoys what he sees, but he enjoys it in the way you see something 'cute'. He likes these people, but he feels he's above them.

Crucifer, get thee a book!

Post by **truehobbit** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:43 am

Posts lost in the recent whaddayacallit - thanks to yov and Jny for saving them. I'm reposting them in one go, as they aren't very substantial.

Crucifer

I can't!
I gots no money! Well, I do, but it is cheques that I have to lodge to get
the money and that takes about a week.

And the annoying thing is that it is only 99 cents.
____________

Cerin

Have you tried the library?

_________________

Crucifer

It would, in this case, be easier to buy it. The nearest library is a
shambles, and I'm not a member.

_________________

truehobbit

Well, there are the e-texts I linked to in my first post.

_________________

Cerin

Library a shambles!? How dreadful!

You should get over there and get a library card just on principle.

________________

And as to the topic at hand: GET READING, FOLKS!